Ask Richard: Atheist’s Mother Tries to Guilt Trip Him

Ask her if she’d do this if you’d become a Jew, Muslim etc. or even another branch of Christianity. I feel that this will show you if she’s being anti-atheist, which you could possibly reason away, or if she’s being obsessively pro-her-faith which you can’t.

I have to disagree with thegoodman. Part of being a family is respecting each other – even when you don’t agree on things. To lie, or ignore, a relative acting like “bravely’s” mom will only act to weaken whatever relationship they have.

I was a little more direct with my family than Richard recommends – when faced with almost exactly the same comments, I took it head on. Like Richard, I kept saying the same thing, but my statement was something along the lines of “I have made my choice, and belittling me won’t change that. I’m trying to be part of this family, but your attacks will do nothing but drive me away. If you want me to be a part of this family, you’re going to have to accept me as I am”.

Yes, a little more wordy, but it does push the point that I am whom I am, that I wanted to remain close to my family, and that their actions were driving me away.

It worked; I remain as close to my family now as I was in me “pre-atheist” days.

This is too familiar to me.

Somewhere around highschool or university, I’d managed to get the point across that I wasn’t going to church. Partly because I stayed in bed, and my family idled the engine waiting for me until they couldn’t wait any longer, and then left. Eventually they got the point, and stopped waiting.

For a while, I was working weekends, and since I often worked late, there was another tangible reason they could attribute it to.

But they still expected me to go at Easter and Christmas. I don’t remember what year it was; probably 2nd or 3rd year of university, but that year I refused to get out of bed for Easter mass. They waited. They idled the truck waiting for me until they couldn’t wait any longer, and then left. Finally, I got up, left the house for a bit, went down to the beach and meditated for about half an hour, came home, and waited for them to return.

My mother was angry, and accused me of ‘not wanting to be part of this family’. As if my choice of religion is a prerequisite of being part of the family, and somehow more important than DNA, or the 20-some-odd-years we’d spent together. I didn’t say anything. I just fumed a little, and went on with the day.

But that was the last time they tried to pressure or guilt me into anything.

You’ve just got to stand your ground. Let them know -gently- that you’re an adult, it’s your life, and you’ll make your own decisions. They’ll come around eventually, even if they don’t agree, they’ll come to some kind of understanding.

I’m starting to notice, having lived on this earth over 40 years, that people start to get a bit “tweaked” in their personalities about this age.

I always kind of thought older people were just whatever their personality was. But now that I’m seeing people progress through their lives, I’m seeing a “tweaking” process going on. Like some people start becoming a more highly-strung version of their younger selves.

Granted, some folks age nicely, and become more balanced and relaxed in their lives. But some other people get stranger and stranger…. kind of more manic. I’ve especially noticed this in women, and often in religious women.

Anyone else seeing this? There doesn’t seem to be a name for it.

unreasonable family members fall into a small category that should be lied to in regard to your faith, or lack there of

Although it may be laudable to consider lying about one’s views, or lying about the likelihood of them changing later, to spare family members’ feelings, I think it’d be a mistake. (I’m somewhat ambivalent on this point in the case of a very old relative, however.)

Imagine if you’ve led an unreasonable relative to believe that you’ll change your views when you have kids. When you do have kids, all the pressure will come back stronger than ever, but this time it won’t just be aimed at you. Some people, who have already shown they’re not going to be reasonable on the issue of religious “faith,” will try anything to influence your kids, who they’ll regard as much more important (and much more promising) than you in their “faith” campaign. I’ve heard of people secretly indoctrinating other people’s kids, telling kids that their own parents are destined for hell, etc., and that on top of the pressure they put on you. You don’t want this kind of nightmare. Much better to give them a few years to reconcile themselves to the fact that they won’t be allowed to proselytize their grandkids.

And really, it’s not fair to string them along if they’re going to have to find out eventually anyway. If you’re not going to raise your kids religious, it’s more than dishonest to pretend that you might choose to do so later in order to get out of conflict now. It’s not just a white lie to spare someone’s feelings (as might arguably be the case with an elderly relative who won’t be around to be disillusioned), it’s a weaselly lie that makes it look like you can’t stick up for yourself or lack the courage of your convictions. It’s like if you want to break up with a significant other, and he/she begs you to reconsider, and you do, even though you know you’re not going to change your mind. Always take the high road, in part because we nonreligious have to avoid giving the religious any excuse to think poorly of us (an unfair double standard, but it is what it is), and partly because the high road is ultimately where we’ll be happiest.

Besides the above considerations, there’s the simple relief of being “out,” and not having to live a lie. By modeling a virtuous life of nonbelief, and speaking of it without equivocation or apology, you will be setting a good example for everyone you know (including, eventually, your kids, who will learn a lot from that, apart from the message of atheism itself). You might even be surprised at some of your previously unreasonable relatives eventually coming around to atheism. In your parents’ case, you’ll be treating them with the respect due to them as adults (even if they haven’t always exhibited the best adult behavior), with minds of their own that can handle the truth. It’s up to them to live up to that standard, but you can’t control that.

It won’t be easy, but you have to be strong, for yourself, for your new family, and for your old family. Good luck.

Me: Then you have to come to terms with the idea that, for whatever divine reason, your God chose to make me an Atheist.

Funny one! Hey mom, here’s a little cognitive dissonance for you. “Faith” doesn’t offer answers for such absurdities.

TeddyKGB,

It pains me to read Richard’s columns

Then why do you?

As an atheist, you should know that life is too damn short

Exactly!

Once again, it’s exceedingly hypocritical to expect someone to respect your beliefs when you disrespect theirs.

It’s also exceedingly hypocritical to go through the motions and pretend when it is absolutely not who you are.

I don’t know what exactly is so painful about attending church for an hour a week

“Life is too damn short” to waste an hour a week doing something you hate just to please others.

What you are doing, however, is spending an hour with your family that you otherwise might not be.

There are countless wonderful and non-religious activities you could do with your family where everyone involved can find a common ground. (i.e. take your mother shopping, help her bake, go to the movies or a bookstore, go for a long walk, etc.)

I don’t think you should look at it just as a comply-or-refuse matter. You can find creative solutions to keep the family together outside of church.

@Jeff Dale
Thanks for the commentary. I think we just come from very different backgrounds and I feel like a lot of the points you make would create needless arguments and tension.

In many situations, an unreasonable relative will have either 1. ended their religious conversion campaign (from my experience these typically last less than 1 year) 2. given up on you. Either of these situations avoid conflict altogether. For an unreasonable relative that increases pressure when I have kids, I will simply tell them the truth at that time. Mostly because it would be me standing up for the well being of my children, not just myself. If they secretly told my children I was going to hell, they would never see my children in the flesh again and if it were a male, would be physically assaulted by my person. True, I do not want this kind of nightmare and I can’t even imagine a situation like this because I am not involved with crazy people, so it is unlikely to ever happen.

Not fair to string them along? In my opinion, it is not fair to pressure someone about their beliefs. The “unreasonable” part implied that said family member is not fair to begin with and is being rude/disrespectful. I am not talking about a perfectly reasonable adult here, I am talking about a completely unreasonable person who refuses to discuss such things. The path of least resistance will ease a lot of tension with all of your family members, even if they know it is not 100% true.

Since I do not believe in god, saying I do is a white lie to me. It is insignificant and has little to no effect on me. If this small lie makes my own mother happy, so be it. There are few people in this world with whom you should compromise your own beliefs in order to make them happy; your mother is on that shortlist with your children and grandmother. Everyone else can take me as I am; for the shortlist, I’ll bend over backward.

I get no relief from being “out”. I am not defined by my atheism. I have an open family that accepts people from all walks of life and they do not judge others. I do not live a lie, I am just disinterested in discussing religion with my family. If they force their hand, I’ll either tell them how I feel, or in special cases (Grandma/Mom) dance around the topic a bit.

Making your mother upset for your own self gratification isn’t setting a good example, it is being rude. I am not so insecure that I need to upset people around me by announcing how I am different/better than they are. I am happy with myself and with my beliefs and I wish to leave my family members in the same situation.

Cheers

Making your mother upset for your own self gratification isn’t setting a good example, it is being rude. I am not so insecure that I need to upset people around me by announcing how I am different/better than they are.

Thanks Thegoodman. I understand where you’re coming from. Some people might indeed derive some type of satisfaction from claiming superiority in this way, but I’m not such a person, and that isn’t what I meant, so I might need to explain a little better.

Basically, you can boil it down this way. If you’re in a family where [1] there’s pressure to conform in religion, and where you can reasonably expect to get abuse if you don’t conform, and [2] if pretending to conform would be uncomfortable for you, and raising religious kids is unacceptable to you, then you’re in a no-win situation not of your own making. You have a choice of either upsetting the relatives or upsetting yourself. It might be worthwhile to brave the storm from disclosure to the family, with some hope of coming out the other side better off for the experience, and you’d be justified in doing so. (I’m fortunate that my family is not like that.)

“Rude” would be if you attacked the relatives’ religion or criticized them personally. None of the above has anything to do with that.

I feel like a lot of the points you make would create needless arguments and tension.
…
If they secretly told my children I was going to hell, they would never see my children in the flesh again and if it were a male, would be physically assaulted by my person.

These two points seem to work at cross-purposes, though I suspect you didn’t mean them that way. My points were meant to suggest facing the tension up front and working thru it, rather than deferring it until the kids arrive and having to fend off the relatives while they learn they’re not allowed to proselytize. If I’m going to have to face the tension and arguments sooner or later, I’d rather face them now, rather pretend for a while, then later have kids and discover that a relative is hell-raising behind my back. Granted, relatives could always try hell-raising anyway, regardless of how far in advance we argue about it, but I suspect that by working thru it in advance I’m reducing the chance that I’ll need to deny any of my relatives access to my kids later.

I get no relief from being “out”. I am not defined by my atheism

I am not defined by my atheism either, but its importance to me is greatly magnified by my concern about the effects of religion on humanity. In other words, in principle, nonbelief to me could be just like non-stamp-collecting. But since the world is full of so many believers, and since some of the major harms and potential dangers to humanity are at best made harder to address by religion (if not outright promoted by it), and since nonbelievers are made to feel like second-class citizens in so many places to a greater or lesser degree, I feel “called,” if you will, to address the issue head-on, for humanitarian reasons, not for strictly personal reasons.

Thus, I like being “out” not as an in-your-face statement, but as a way of showing the normalcy of nonbelief, both to theists (who I hope will learn to be more understanding and accepting, where that is needed) and to atheists (who I hope will feel more comfortable with themselves and the people they know). In other words, my reasons for and approach to being “out” are the same as for many in the LGBT community. (The ones who model a normal life as LGBT, not the ones who go on parade in flamboyant costumes. Not that there’s anything wrong with that).

Wear one of those beanie thingies, grow a beard and tell Mom you’ve become a Jew. After she freaks out for a couple of weeks, tell her you’ve given up Judaism (you didn’t really like the Christian babies’ blood) and now you’re ready to compromise. She’ll be happy to have you as an atheist.

Of all the various problems about which people write to me, the most common by far is about parents who are not accepting their adult child’s atheism. There are no blanket or cookie cutter solutions to this problem. I have to give my advice on a case-by-case basis, and I can only go by the insights and impressions I get from the details of each letter.

There are many complex factors in these family conflicts, and the strength of any one factor can make the optimal response completely different from any other case. Just a few of these include the ages of the people involved, the financial dependency issues, the living arrangements, the recent or imminent life events happening, the level of tension about the subject, and the balance of reasonableness or unreasonableness in the individuals’ stances. So for one family I might make a suggestion similar to what you have read here, or I might make even the exact opposite suggestion for a different family.

So when you read a letter and my response, it may or may not fit whatever has been your experience, but it is a mistake to say, “Oh you should never do such-and-such,” or “Oh you should always do such-and-such.”

In such family problems as these, every solution, every response has its advantages and disadvantages, its possibilities and its risks. Without exception, there is a trade-off, there is almost always at least a little pain that must be felt. Often the choice between solutions comes down to some pain felt now or much more pain felt later.

For instance, in this family, the mother is trying to characterize Face’s desire to not attend church as something that hurts her and the family. That is patently absurd. She is focused on getting her way and maintaining control over her son who is naturally asserting his independence in many areas of his life. His not going to church does not in any way stop her or anyone else in the family from going. So the “hurt” she feels is entirely contrived in her own mind.

The tactic of acquiescing to her demands and going might “keep the peace” with the mother, but as I said, there is always a trade-off. If it was about a 99 year-old grandma who wants Face to go to Christmas Mass, then it might be worth it to just do it. In this case, my impression is that the mother would continue to demand one thing after another, issue after issue, following Face into his marriage until something finally became too much for him to bear, and the crisis would explode much more destructively. I have worked with hundreds of families with these control issues, and in general, the adult child asserting his boundaries sooner is better and easier than doing it later.

The argument was put forth that going along with a parent’s desire for church attendance would be okay until the adult child wanted to marry, and then the parent would have to accept a non-religious wedding ceremony. The problem with that would immediately be that the parent would say, “You have gone to church for me all these years, why can’t you get married in a church too?”

If you give in, and give in, and give in, you are adding weight to the argument for giving in one more time. There will be no end to the demands until you make an end.

Someone shared that they would be willing to acquiesce to their parent’s wish for church attendance until children were born, and then they would put their foot down and say “no.” Again, this might be just putting off some pain now for much more pain later. The parent has gotten into the habit of having her way about church with one generation, and she will be much more emboldened to make demands about the little ones.

When you postpone drawing a line in the sand, usually that line is far harder to enforce.

So it all depends on so many variables, and there are never any perfect or painless solutions. Sometimes argument works, sometimes it just feeds the fire. Sometimes dismissal works, sometimes it simply fails. Sometimes complying is acceptable, and sometimes it is not acceptable. Sometimes the pain now is worth avoiding, and sometimes it is much less than what you’ll get later.

Family life is never simple, neat, clean, convenient or painless. No one, myself included, can have all the right answers to all the questions. That’s why these are suggestions. Take what seems right and leave the rest, according to your own experience and your own hunches. I wish everyone who is faced with these challenges good luck, because sometimes, even with the most well-considered strategy, the outcome boils down to luck alone.

Richard, I thought your advice was excellent and, yes, I picked up on that it was suited to the particular situation presented to you before your comment. I think you’re quite right that if the mother is allowed to interfere, she’ll continue to do so.

Wear one of those beanie thingies, grow a beard and tell Mom you’ve become a Jew. After she freaks out for a couple of weeks, tell her you’ve given up Judaism (you didn’t really like the Christian babies’ blood) and now you’re ready to compromise. She’ll be happy to have you as an atheist.

LOL, that did not exactly work for me (strike the beard and yarmulke). My fundy nut of a mother would have preferred that to nonbelief even though she usually references Jews by calling them heathens. However, by the time, I had gone out of Judaism to Agnosticism en route to Atheism, I’d already disowned her.

My parents were so abusive and my family so dysfunctional that I never had to deal with these issues. The only thought I can leave those of you who have such a loving family that you do is this thought: You’re lucky. Very, very lucky.

For what it’s worth, treasure that you mean enough to each other for this to be an issue. I’m envious.

I really liked Richard’s advice to try and empathize with the mom. I found that helped me immensely when dealing with my religious in-laws.

I wanted to highlight one point that was touched on by a few people, but I think is important enough to repeat. For many people the unknown is scary. Face is embarking on a way of life that is likely unknown and therefore scary to his/her mom. It sounds like s/he comes from an otherwise happy family, one where they help each other and support each other. So, it just makes sense that she would be concerned that her child wants to try something new, unknown and to her unproven! She probably wants her children to stick with the Catholic plan that has worked so well for her!

I recommend sitting both the parents down (because the dad is being somewhat supportive and will help temper the situation) and mixing a little flattery in with the honesty. Something like:
“mom, you’ve raised me to be an intelligent, independent, honest, loving ADULT and that will never change. Those core values won’t change whether I’m inside or outside of church. And I’m afraid you taught me to stand on my feet too well so I cannot change what I believe to be true just to make you or anyone else happy. I don’t want to fight with you, but I don’t want to lie to you either, I respect you too much to do that. So let’s just agree to disagree on this, okay?”

Good luck!

Re: Menopause

Sexism on Atheist/Humanist boards= NOT OKAY.

Yep. Bitches is KRAZY. Look at them, with their stupid bodies, full of hormones. Sometimes they cry! Sometimes they get pregnant when they don’t want to! Then they go through menopause and are complete idiots. Good thing the MENZ are in charge, as they are perpetually 25 and don’t have natural life cycles.

Take it easy Sarah McLachlan. Women are not crazy but, most mothers are. They devote their lives to their children and when their kids leave the house, they are often without purpose in life. This tends to make them act a bit irrational.

My mother is crazy and I love her. She is a great mom, but she is insane. My mother-in-law is equally crazy.

Men cannot be blamed for the erratic and often illogical behavior of menopausal women.