Theft and Trust

At least now you have the veneer of a bad ass dispenser of vigilante justice.

Like Batman, but without the savage beatings.

Funny enough, ever since I started watching Psych, I have kept a sharper eye on the finer details when incidents occur. A few months back I was about to give the exact train car number, time, and logos on apparel for a police report. Repeating events a few times in your head as soon as it happens, or even telling it to someone right away, will help tremendously. Don’t we learn something like 90% of what we teach?

The real trick is practicing it before something occurs. I am not anything like the guy on Psych, or even a trained specialist, but it surely helps when needed.

@Neil That’s why I have the camera as the default when I click the button twice on my iphone. Quick pictures when you need to take them or something cool pops up.

People are generally good, yes.

However, there are a lot of parents that do not teach their kids that stealing is wrong. In fact, I know of people that teach directly the opposite: “take whatever you can get. the world owes you whatever you want.”

It is unfortunately quite sad that these people are not educated enough to at least raise their kids in a positive fashion.

I hope that the people you were talking with will go to lost and found or try to connect with you on the same train again.

I’d say don’t trust anybody farther than you can throw them. I know thats cynical, but I’ve had too much shit stolen from me to say otherwise. People are, above all else, unpredictable. Even a generally good person may do something bad for reasons even he/she doesn’t fully understand.

Aw, sorry Jesse. I hope your backpack and laptop get returned. I very much believe that people are more good than bad, but the bad often has such impact on us, it takes a lot more good to counteract it. I hope your heel feels better soon too.

PS Didn’t mean to make it sound like I think stealing is ok in the right circumstances. Obviously it’s wrong and I haven’t done it in years.

I’ve had two backpacks stolen out of my car; on of those times, the thief took my graphing calculator out and left it on the driver’s seat. The biggest theft was two loads of clean laundry and an overnight bag stolen out of my car – it was basically everything that I wore on a regular basis, and I had to buy new jeans, underwear, work clothes, everything. I had been living out of my car for three months in order to save money, and that theft basically wiped out everything I had saved.

I lost one bicycle to theft at Oregon State; my brother has, IIrc, had three bicycles stolen out of his car at various times.

The hospital where I work has had several microwaves stolen out of the cafeteria, as well as several *fish* out of the tank in the waiting room. Cars in the hospital lot are frequently broken in to, with the rate seeming to peak during the holidays.

One small botique garden store in a town to the south of where I work was forced to close due to losses from repeated thefts (yes, they had alarms and everything).

I hate thieves.
It’s almost never about taking a loaf of bread when you’re starving; it’s about taking something that someone else worked for that you want, without doing the work for it.

I had my iPhone ripped out of my hand in a shopping mall last week. I chased the guy (wearing my backpack, leaving my winter jacked behind). He ran around the mall and looped back to where I was sitting, and handed it off to another guy in a large group of teenagers. I attempted to block the group from leaving the mall, but they basically shoved me out of the way and entered the metro. All the while mall security was basically watching and doing nothing. I filed a police report, but I basically got the impression that nothing would be done. At least the guy who was sitting next to me when it happened held on to my jacket for me. The group who stole my phone did not look like they needed the money for food/etc as they were all wearing very expensive and new looking clothes (they had much more expensive clothes than I did).

I did hear from a co-worker about an incident on Monday where someone did the same thing on a public street, and ended up having a large group of random people chasing him and his group down, and holding them until the police showed up. It seems like vigilantism by large numbers of people is the only way these sort of things will be stopped.

On NPR there was report a couple of months back. I did some digging but couldnt find the story.

The teacher asked his class, by a show of hands, how many of them had seen their parents steal something. The teacher thought it was a rhetorical question, but was shocked by the number of kids who raised their hands.

As for humans being basically good? Ive never thought that. I always assume that humans will behave within the social norms of their society. Mix in mental dysfunction like sociopathy and you get a potentially violent and destructive society.

I never go anywhere without a weapon of some sort. Folding knife, pepper spray, gun, something. That said, I also to expect that there is a good chance I will never need to defend myself.

I agree Matt. I have strict personal rules for weapon use. I would never attack someone over theft of property. The only time I would use force is to defend a person. I have no desire to be a hero. No persons life is worth the loss of a material item.

I just look at history, and I see no reason to think that we are a naturally altruistic species. Perhaps one day we can grow beyond it. As the world is now, I prepare for violence the same way I prepare for kitchen fires. Prevention first, but have to tools to put it out if it starts.

I don’t subscribe to the assumption that people are generally good, in fact i think the opposite is true. Lots of people are bad, I believe most people are bad, (I know bad is subjective but I’m looking at it as bad people = people working against my interest) While it’s a bummer that you had your device wrenched from your grip it’s not at all surprising. Perhaps in the future you may think twice before flaunting your comparative affluence in the face of the covetous masses. To be clear I’m not saying it was your fault or that you brought it upon yourself but… really you should be more aware of your surroundings and the potential for bad things to happen. Also your judgment and sense of loss mitigation seems a bit off as evidenced by your bolting after a relatively cheap device while abandoning a much more expensive one. People steal things because they can, and they generally look for easy targets, don’t be an easy target. This does not guarantee that you will not be a victim but it seriously decreases the odds that you will be the target of crime. I have been robbed myself and I was targeted because I was careless at the time, I showed my hand at the wrong time and I paid the price.

The question that keeps coming to my mind is: didn’t anyone ever teach them not to steal?

I’m sure someone did, and someone tried to teach me to love Jesus and I disregarded that lesson, so not every lesson taught is accepted as valid. Maybe you can explain to me why stealing is wrong, I have my own reasons for not stealing, (and I don’t) but why do you, (or any of you) think I shouldn’t? If a person can steal with no negative consequence then why should they refrain? Banks do it, insurance companies do it, churches do it, so why not individuals? It seems to me that stealing is a major force in our American economy, those who do it tend to succeed, granted at the expense of the whole, but so what, success is it’s own reward and who says I owe anyone anything anyway. The real trick is to monitor the trip point for consequences and try to stay on the side where the reward/consequence ratio is in your favor. This has proven itself a sound strategy on a macro scale and while it may have directly lead to our current economic hardship this hardship is mostly affecting individuals who are not perpetrating mass theft, while most corporate thieves benefit greatly, with the exception of the few who ignore the r/c ratio and get carried away.
People suck, deal with it. Why in the world did you post about your personal loss on this site anyway? What does this have to do with atheist issues? I’m not scolding you I just honestly wonder why, I feel it must have some reason for being on this site but maybe I’m too dim just now to sus it out .

I hope that your laptop and bag were handed into lost and found and that will help restore your faith in humanity.

As for your robber, some people’s parents just didn’t raise them right. He’s obviously one of them.

It sucks being robbed. I remember how enraged I was when my ipod was stolen. Of course I also remember how amused I was when it was returned. Apparently the thief (thieves) didn’t like my taste in music!

Edit: @ LKL: FISH?!?! People steal FISH? Wow I thought I’d heard everything. How the hell would you steal a fish? *wanders off muttering to self about crazy people*

Not to sound cynical but I fear that just give it back tactic is gonna work one hell of a lot better for a young, healthy male and, depending, even the young, healthy female than me. Of course, I wouldn’t have been able to catch him either.

I don’t recommend doing it even for you. If my daughter did something like that, I’d go upside her head (figuratively speaking but perhaps with a light slap) and say, “What’s the matter with you, girl? Don’t you know you’re more valuable than the damned i-pod?”

When I was younger, I was of Revyloution’s mindset. Still, somewhat am. I’m always thinking about how I can defend myself, if necessary. (Just tougher to imagine with my troubles walking; on the cane, I relished the cane as weapon bit but what am I going to do with a walker, run them over? Of course, now I’m always with the young, healthy daughter in tow.) But, bottom line, any human being is worth more than any thing though some human beings definitely make you doubt that. I lived in Colorado with their make my day law and thought the mentality that it was okay to kill someone over a stereo was totally fucked up.

In addition to being prepared to defend myself always, I also keep things close where they can’t be easily snatched, and never, ever flash the cash in public. It always amazes me how panhandlers do so well. I never give. Not because I’m not charitable but because I always think what a perfect way to get someone to open their wallet and give you a peek at how much cash they’re caring. There’s a zillion organizations out there if you want to help people in need through which to do so. Pick one that appeals to you. I did once help a mother with a young child in dire straits who found the local mission locked against her but by sharing some of my meager groceries with her.

That said, I’ve been working in building maintenance for the first time in my life for a little over two years now and it is an eye-opener as for as human nature goes and let me tell you, human nature ain’t nothing to brag about. I’m secretary to the building manager of a State office building. State workers are definitely paid enough to buy the small necessities but theft of soap and paper towels are common place. Especially given that to steal the soap, you actually have to bring in a container and stand there holding down the button to empty it into the container all while hoping no one catches you. Yet State workers steal soap. And paper towels. And newspapers from the blind woman who runs the newsstand in the lobby.

Not only theft but when people are pissed at their boss, they take it out on the building. There are some real fucked up things that go on and purposely plugging up toilets are the least of it. Shitting in trash cans is one and, when I was grimacing over that one, my boss told me of one where they did in the sink and then smeared it around and plugged the sink up with paper towels. Ripping soap dispensers, paper towel dispensers and toilet papers off walls are favorites but they’ll break anything they think they can get away with. Restrooms, probably because they can’t have cameras, are favorites.

Human beings are some kind of fucked up and don’t trust them as far as you can throw them.

That said, Jesse, I’m glad you’re okay. But don’t chase after them any more. An I-pod ain’t worth dying for, man.

The problem with that approach is he has very little incentive to stop. Sure you get your iphone back, but the next guy probably won’t. You really should have turned him into the police.

Don’t we learn something like 90% of what we teach?

Uh, doesn’t this imply you don’t know what you’re teaching the other 10% of the time?

muggle, I have a feeling that if we lived in the same town, we would have coffee every Sunday morning.

The old adage “Hope for the best, prepare for the worst” is always a good mentality to have.

Being a pro-gun guy, I really cringe when I go to gun shows. The general mentality is they all plan on shooting anyone that steals from their vegetable garden. I love your sentiment about human beings worth more than things. My thoughts exactly.

Your stories about the office building don’t surprise me. People can be just as amazing as they can be miserable. Humanity contains our greatest hopes and our worst fears.

I’m glad you weren’t hurt and hope you recover your other items.

Assumption that people are generally good – momentarily shaken.

In my case the assumption that people are good is permanently shaken. I’ve been the victim of theft so many times that I no longer believe people are naturally good.

FWIW, walk-by snatchings of train riders’ iPhones & iPods is all the rage, at least along the Green Line of the Chicago el.

Advice: Stay aware of your surroundings. No weapon or martial art will keep you safe if you’re not paying attention to your environment. Paying attention is the easiest way to avoid the need for violent reaction. Also, if you carry a weapon, know how to use it otherwise it’s liable to be taken from you and used against you. Guns especially.

Keep the shiny toys under wraps or close to the vest, and replace those “please steal my Apple(tm) gear” white-corded earbuds for something in basic low-visibility generic black. Sometimes Apple’s design panache is an absolute liability.

I have a hard time justifying the use of lethal force in defense of property, though the notion that the thief should have the holy living shit beat out of them holds some attraction, at least on the surface. I doubt that’s the right approach though.

Not quite 19 years in Portland. I graduated from high school and went to college at the usual age.

When your understandable anger has subsided, you might try to consider the whole episode from a purely rationalist perspective… and brush up on your evolutionary biology at the same time.

Theft and other forms of ‘cheating’ are classic strategies in game theory. In any predominantly co-operative society, the best (i.e. least costly) strategy for a certain frequency of individuals is to ‘cheat’, rather than conform to the rules of the game (i.e. work for their money). In other words, depending on the likelihood and severity of punishment, it is always worth taking the gamble of committing crime for some people in a society. This is why no society can ever eliminate crime – unless there is a 100% chance of being punished by death, it will always be profitable for some individuals to cheat.

Eh, Revyloution, it must be hat. That sounds totally cool but I’m shyer in person than I am on-line, unless I get mad or totally relate to what you’re saying or… um, never mind. I have trouble making friends in person but, yes, I’d agree. We click on a lot.

supercheetah, I wish someone who mattered was listening to your ideas! Terrific. I think you’ve got something there. For all the lip service we give rehabilitation, we don’t see much of what your saying. Instead we get stuff like Colson’s nonsense.

Heidi, I never have been actually (unless you count scumbag ex-husbands) but it might just be the attitude. I do get rather in your face. Less than a year ago, I did have to turn that cane around and threaten a young punk who decided it’d be a good idea to push a middle-aged Grandma on a cane around. Don’t know but that I might be in jail for assault but her companion had more sense than she did and pulled her away before it came to blows — and I was not going to be shoved a second time. Fortunately, I was seated at the time — on a bus, where she thought she’d shove me off so her young healthy butt could sit. In the handicapped seat at the front of the bus, no less. If you’re ever in this neck of the woods, stay off the #55, Albany-Schenectady route. You need a weapon on that mother fucker.

Don’t test it. If I had to I might just run you over with that rolling walker. My lower lims suck but I’ll pit my upper body strength against near anyone short of a gym fanatic. It’s pretty damned good despite arthritis in shoulders, neck and spine. If I’m sitting, I probably could swing that thing!

Don’t worry. I’ve never actually hurt anyone. I sprayed pepper spray once on a bus when a guy shoved his knee into my back (didn’t want anyone sitting next to him on a packed bus, fuck him, I ain’t standing when there’s a seat) but he was taller than I figured and I missed his eyes. Should have seen the room that suddenly cleared around us and he left me the fuck alone rest of the way home. Could be because I kept the pepper spray out and properly aimed the rest of the way.

I also had a vicious black cat who was convinced that she had to live up to movie stereotypes for 18 1/2 years. That little New York bitch not only beat up two Dobermans and a German Shepherd but scared away two burglars that I know of so (and one more that I suspect but can’t be sure about), no, I was never burlglered either. She was fucking psycho! I still miss her and she’s been dead 14 years. I fear I’ll be like Mr. Bojangles in that respect.

Um, where do I live for this kind of stuff? Denver and Albany, NY. Missed Albany the whole time I lived in Denver. What can I say, this is home.