Joseph and Mary, Lying in a Bed…

Mary wasn’t a virgin for life, was she?

The Catholics believe otherwise, actually. Go figure.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Mary’s perpetual virginity

In connection with the study of Mary during Our Lord’s hidden life, we meet the questions of her perpetual virginity, of her Divine motherhood, and of her personal sanctity. Her spotless virginity has been sufficiently considered in the article on the Virgin Birth. The authorities there cited maintain that Mary remained a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to her Divine Son, as well as after the birth of Jesus. Mary’s question (Luke 1:34), the angel’s answer (Luke 1:35-37), Joseph’s way of behaving in his doubt (Matthew 1:19-25), Christ’s words addressed to the Jews (John 8:19) show that Mary retained her virginity during the conception of her Divine Son. [65]

As to Mary’s virginity after her childbirth, it is not denied by St. Matthew’s expressions “before they came together” (1:18), “her firstborn son” (1:25), nor by the fact that the New Testament books repeatedly refer to the “brothers of Jesus”. [66] The words “before they came together” mean probably, “before they lived in the same house”, referring to the time when they were merely betrothed; but even if the words be understood of marital intercourse, they only state that the Incarnation took place before any such intercourse had intervened, without implying that it did occur after the Incarnation of the Son of God. [67]

The same must be said of the expression, “and he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son” (Matthew 1:25); the Evangelist tells us what did not happen before the birth of Jesus, without suggesting that it happened after his birth. [68] The name “firstborn” applies to Jesus whether his mother remained a virgin or gave birth to other children after Jesus; among the Jews it was a legal name [69], so that its occurrence in the Gospel cannot astonish us.

Finally, the “brothers of Jesus” are neither the sons of Mary, nor the brothers of Our Lord in the proper sense of the word, but they are His cousins or the more or less near relatives. [70] The Church insists that in His birth the Son of God did not lessen but consecrate the virginal integrity of His mother (Secret in Mass of Purification). The Fathers express themselves in similar language concerning this privilege of Mary. [71]

I thought Jesus had siblings?

More importantly, why are the people in the picture white???

JJ, you’re quoting from the Catholic Encyclopedia circa 1918. Lots of things have changed in the Catholic Church since then.

I’ve always wondered, if Joseph wasn’t Jesus’ father, why does the Bible go to so much trouble to trace Jesus’ lineage back to David and Adam through Joseph?

I mean, I think I understand it from a real-world perspective (retrofitting a prophecy), but what’s the in-universe explanation? Honestly, just using the word “adoption” would suffice, I think, but it might paint God as an unfit parent.

@micketymoc

Jesuits are an interesting species of Catholic and deserve a separate study 😉

@all

It is generally held within Catholic circles that Mary, in fact, remained a virgin the rest of her life. Therefore maintaining the sanctity of her divine vagina.

Although in the grand scheme of the Catholic canon it’s not something vehemently defendeded, it lays in the “that’s our tradition, whadya gonna do”

Ahhh, Christianity… the only mind of thought where you pretend that something everyone does, over and over and over, doesn’t exist if we don’t talk about it.

But that billboard is pretty damn funny and I might even consider heading to a church that would put that up! Just for giggles and to see what kind of folks go there!

So men who have never married, take ownership of a women’s vagina who (if she is existed) lived 2000 years ago? That’s just many layers of screwed up.

If Mary remained a virgin for the rest of her life then “poor Josef” indeed.

2,000+ years without sex?! I’d rather go to Hell….

Props to the church for having a sense of humor.

But… isn’t it potentially offensive to imply that Mary had SEX with God? Are they saying God didn’t just magically cause conception to occur inside Mary, but that he actually, um, you know… like Zeus used to do?

Theresa said

like Zeus used to do?

Some biblical historians claim that the virgin birth, and the paternal deity were inserted into Christianity when it moved from Jerusalem to Greece. The Greeks have a long tradition of man/god creatures, so this made it much more palatable for them to convert.

More support for the argument comes from the importance of lineage to the Semetic tribes. Read the old testament, and most important figures have long and important genealogies. That might be why the bible contradicts itself on his birth, claiming lineage to Joseph as well as claiming the immaculate conception.

But far more importantly, DAMN thats funny. I have a new wall paper for my PC!

For the poetically-minded; this is from Anthony Burgess’ book ‘Abba Abba’ – it is part of a translation of a sonnet by the Roman poet Belli – the Angel Gabriel is speaking to Mary:

“Ave,” he said, and after that, “Maria.
Rejoice because the Lord’s eternal love
Has made you pregnant – not by orthodox
Methods, of course. The Pentecostal dove
Came silently and nested in your box.”
“A hen?” she blushed. “For I know nothing of -”
The angel nodded, knowing she meant cocks

From their site:

“You don’t have to be Christian to be progressive
It might be a surprise to many Christians that there are also progressive Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus (see links below). There are other groups such as the Unitarian Universalist Association that has a Judeo-Christian heritage but does not claim to be specifically Christian who are leaders in progressive religion. What all these progressives hold in common are a commitment to inclusiveness, tolerance, peace, social justice, human rights, and open thought. In sum they believe that the world can be a better place where love and compassion are the goal. They also believe that each individual has a responsibility to participate in this transforming work.

Like progressive Christians they are often rejected and reviled by those who share their faith story. For them it is a lonely path as well and yet, like us at St Matthew’s, they are not alone.”

Interesting.

I was taught that Catholic tradition says Mary was a kind of temple virgin, sworn to a life of prayer, not sex. Elderly, rich widowers like Joseph married these women in name only as an act of charity: providing shelter in a culture where women didn’t live alone easily. When Mary got pregnant, Joseph was offended not just because it implied she’d had premarital sex, but because people would assume that he’d taken advantage of his ward. After Jesus’s birth, Mary and Joseph supposedly went back to the original, sex-free arrangement.

As a catholic kid, this story made more sense to me than a couple swearing off sex forever just for kicks or because St. Paul had decided that the world would end in his lifetime and he thought his holy figures would have agreed with him that there was no point in baby making or sex-for-pleasure (or having ANY fun) if the end of the world was arriving any moment now.

But the city’s Catholic diocese is not impressed, saying the implication that Mary and Joseph had just had sex was “disrespectful” and “offensive” to Christians.

Oh fuck you Catholic Church, you freaks are always offended about sex.

“Our Christian tradition of 2000 years is that Mary remains a virgin and that Jesus is the son of God, not Joseph,” she said.

Wow, the Catholic Church really doesn’t doesn’t understand anything about sex. They think Joseph isn’t going to tap his own wife. You know, in those days it isn’t as though the woman would even have a choice. If the man wanted sex from his wife it was pretty much going to happen.

So what discussion is this supposed to provoke anyway. It isn’t clear at all. I amuses and confused.

Ah well what does one expect from a dangerous, dehumanizing theology that asserts that human beings are born bad and every wonderful thing associated with being human is either bad or given to you by their blood thirsty god… or strangely both. So naturally their message is sex with another human being is necessarily bad in comparison to their make believe friend.

The Catholic Church has once again awakened a dog that should been allowed to sleep. Didn’t they learn anything from that Galileo thingy?
They insist she remained a virgin, despite her marriage to Joseph and the birth of at least one more kid, James. Presumable, Jesus and James were only half-brothers. As such, they must have had different Y chromosomes.
Now most Biblical scholars seem to agree the whole “virgin” thing was simply a Hebrew-to-Greek mistranslation of the word meaning “young woman.”
Also, when Mary was having sex with god, what did she yell out? Oh you! Oh you!
That’s the great thing about dogma. It is immune to correction, despite new data. Why can’t religious people understand that’s the fundamental difference between faith and science?

@Mary:
If I remember my Bible correctly, it is Joseph whose line goes back to David. (Through two separate and contradictory geealogies, BTW.)
Of course, since Christians insist Joseph wasn’t really Jesus’ father, it’s not clear why that’s important.
I’m beginning to think our species was much stupider during the Bronze Age.

Isn’t marrying a man and not having sex with him un-Christian? NOM and the other gay marriage opposition keep saying that gay people can’t marry because they can’t reproduce and apparently, marriage without reproduction goes against god (though they do bend over backwards to say that as long as you give it a good try, you aren’t disobeying god by being infertile – so good of them). But if Mary is going to get married to Joseph but then never have sex and never reproduce, isn’t that also against god?

I would think that Joseph would have an easier time after God. After all Mary didn’t realize what God did to her until someone else (an angel) told her. If God was really all that good like the all the hymns say he is, wouldn’t it be Mary, and not the angels, singing his praise. God maybe omnipotent and all seeing, but He doesn’t do much for the ladies.

What’s actually more funny is that never having sex again is considered a sign of purity in Mary (because sex between a married couple is still dirty, apparently) but is grounds for annulment of a Catholic marriage today. A husband or wife that will not submit to sex or a marriage incapable of concieving children will get you an anullment if you bring it to Catholic court.

It’s even funnier if you consider that Joe’s the patron saint of married people.

Rereading the article, I wonder if we’re getting the “offense” wrong. The Catholics think all Christians should be offended by illustrated jokes about holy figure sex on billboards but are extra irked on their own behalf because their dogma doesn’t allow them to make the same joke in private.

But why were the Catholics interviewed at all? Were they the ones who defaced the billboard?

(On a side note, look at Joseph in the picture. How could Jesus not be his son? This would be an open/shut case on Maury.)

Okay, that got a big belly laugh from me 🙂

As others have pointed out, the perpetual virginity of Mary is a core doctrine of the Catholic church (and also of the Orthodox). Progressive Catholics, such as the one who taught micketymoc, may have different beliefs, but their beliefs are not consistent with the teachings of the hierarchy of the Catholic church. I refer you to Part 1, section 2, chapter 2, article 3, paragraph 499 of the Catechism of the Cathoic church (emphasis added):

The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary’s real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. In fact, Christ’s birth “did not diminish his mother’s virginal integrity but sanctified it.” And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the “Ever-virgin”.

Mary:

And didn’t bloodlines pass through the woman? So Jesus would have been of the line of David because of Mary. Or am I wrong?

No, Biblical Jewish bloodlines always pass through the father, which in the case of Jesus means that genealogies are given for Joseph. Modern Judaism holds that Jewishness passes through the mother, but that’s the result of a rabbinical ruling in the Middle Ages.

“Our Christian tradition of 2000 years is that Mary remains a virgin and that Jesus is the son of God, not Joseph,” [Lyndsay Freer] said.

It seems to me that Ms Freer doesn’t really grok the billboard. She didn’t need to assert “Jesus is the son of God, not Joseph.” The whole point of the billboard was that Jesus was the son of God, and Joseph found that a hard act to follow. Good grief…

@ Michelle

St Matts is pretty interesting as far as churches go – they have weekly LGBT services, and are very active with the the poor and homeless, along with their vicar having the sort of theology that looks a lot an atheist in disguise, as he rejects the supernatural bits of the bible! It is an Anglican (Episcopal) parish – when I was still an Anglican, I used to go there for their midnight service on Christmas Eve, and still have pleasant memories of it, even though I am now an atheist.

If Mary “lives” on (as the Catholics believe) as some kind of spiritual being and continues to be a virgin, I will volunteer to de-flower her if she can manifest herself temporarily in a material form so a mere mortal as myself can have access. I figure it is the least I can do to settle this issue.

I’ll let everybody know if it happens. Don’t hold your breath, though.

hover frog, before R. K. Rowling came out with that one I was certain, Dumbledore had a thing going on with McGonagall.

Seriously, rewatch a couple of those movies. Those two are more joined at the hip than a married couple and always back up and admire each other. There is some chemistry going back a long way, since they were young, I bet.

I think Rowling was just trying to squash the rumors. She’d do better to write the prequel. Now that’s a love story I’d love to read — and I hate both romance novels and chick flicks.

I don’t quite understand why we’re arguing if a couple of fictional characters in a book had sex or not.

Maybe Joseph was gay and Mary was just his beard.

Or maybe Mary was one heckofa nobgobbler.

Oh jeez, I’m going to hell for sure now.

If Mary “lives” on (as the Catholics believe) as some kind of spiritual being

Jeff – sorry, but I’m going to have to nitpick on this as contrary to Catholic dogma again.

Mary was assumed into heaven, body and all. She’s not spiritual, she’s as physical as you and me. The only reason you can’t see her is because she’s in heaven, rather than right here. Once again, this is dogmatic, deny-it-and-be-excommunicated stuff.

So, talk of her remaining a virgin (present tense) after 2000 years is completely accurate. The reality is you don’t have to mock it to make it sound silly. It really does sound silly all on its own.

rgds.

If the idea that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations is offensive to Christians, please don’t tell them about Sophia Fahs’ children’s religious education curriculum subversively titled Jesus the Carpenter’s Son.

Fahs wrote this in the mid-1940s and it was used by the American Unitarian Association for many years before their merger with the Universalist Church of America. This children’s book doesn’t talk about virgin birth and depicts Joseph as Jesus’ father. Jesus is depicted as a noted teacher and thinker but not as the son of God or god-like in other ways.

You can read portions of this online here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=8H0hqUJovnoC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_navlinks_s#v=onepage&q=&f=false

I laughed, but it’s not offensive to me. But given how many of religion are offended by just about anything and everything, this one gets added to the list so they can inject themselves into the press (again).

Mary was assumed into heaven, body and all. She’s not spiritual, she’s as physical as you and me.

OK, if by chance there is a heaven and I find myself there, I will look up Mary and relieve her of her status. Eternity is a long time to remain a virgin. Either that or I’ll have a little chat with both Mary and Joseph and get them “together”.

Somebody needs to write a fanfic to clear everything up. I’m a JC/Magdalene shipper myself, tee hee.