Yes, Virginia… There Is No God

GOOD for them!!! I love the ad.
Xtians say the most ridiculous things,and post them all over- even extremely offensive and hateful ideas about gays. I’m sure they will have a shit fit over this, but who cares?

There is nothing wrong with saying there’s NO GOD. I liken it to saying there are NO FARIES or No Santa, for that matter.We’re atheists, not agnostics after all.

Staceyjw

Slightly OT, but as an old newspaper guy, I can spot a phony letter to the editor in a second. The original “little girl” letter is fake. It was obviously written by an adult, probably a newspaper employee. How do I know?
Easy. Have you ever heard a child refer to her pals as “my little friends”?
Of course not. It’s a condescending term used by parents and other adults.
Also, I disagree: There is no god. No need to modify that statement of fact.

“Atheists don’t (and shouldn’t) say, “There is no God” because it’s wrong to make such a blanket statement.”

Erm… I say there is no god, because god, as defined by christians, cannot exist. Saying “there is no god” is as accurate as saying “there are no square circles”

When the definition is self contradictory, you don’t need to tread lightly.

No one can say there is no god with 100% certainty, but neither can you say anything else with absolute, 100% certainty – there’s always a crazy infinitesimal chance that the sky is actually red, for instance, and that our entire lives we’ve had mass hallucinations of it being blue, including all the scientific information that identifies it as “blue”. But we say definitively that “The sky is blue”, because at some level of certainty we state that something is, in fact, true. In my opinion, the statement “there is no god” is beyond this level of certainty so it can be uttered without saying “PROBABLY there is no god” just like we dont say “PROBABLY the sky is blue”.

Based on how we use the statement “There is no [blank]” (for instance, in reference to the tooth fairy, spaghetti monster, santa claus), I think “There is no god” is complete fair.

Really, Hemant? Can we really not say there is no God, there is no Santa Claus, or there are no flying, invisible hippopotamuses? Do we really have to drape all of those in conditionals just because there is some infinitesimally small chance they are wrong? Are all of those statements absurd?

I think the only absurd thing here is your criticism of the ad.

Hate to break it to you Hemant but there is no Santa just as there are no gods or firebreathing dragons.

My problem is more with the Santa imagery than the text. People have all kinds of misconceptions about atheists, one of which is that we’re spoilsports, Ebeneezer Scrooges, literal-minded Spocks trying to ruin the fun of the holidays for everyone. Do we HAVE to play into that perception in this ad?

They should do these as a boxed set of Christmas cards. I’d buy a case for Bill O’Reilly.

I kinda agree with Hemant. It’s not particularly friendly. I don’t think it’s the fact that they didn’t qualify their statement with the word “probably” but instead I don’t like it’s cause it’s obviously targeted at kids–and provoking kids. I know the other side does this all the time, but that doesn’t make it right. I don’t think that we need the law to make the entire world bubble wrapped in family friendliness, but there’s really just no good reason for FFRF to go there.

Also, British libel laws are stricter, and free speech protections weaker (which of course you know from the UK “chiropractors are frauds” lawsuit) which is probably why they use “probably” in their ads.

It seems that some atheists do say “there is no god”.

It’s not a necessary condition of atheism, but it’s certainly sufficient, and apparently a position held by the FFRF.

Of course, I can also see the argument that it’s unhelpful. Theists will call any atheist advertisement offensive. If our ads are entirely, utterly reasonable, then they seem silly.

If the ad is something that could possibly be taken as offensive, then the debate devolves into yet another round of “Atheists: Rude?” rather than anything about theism’s arguments.

I agree with all the other commenters here – I do not understand why it’s inaccurate to say there is no god. God is a concept invented by humans. When used in the singular form, it almost always refers to a specific deity in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Therefore, saying “there is no god” does not mean you think there is no possibility that some supernatural force exists. It means specifically that the Judeo-Christian god, or any other specific deity, is an invented concept with zero probability of existing. I could sit here right now and invent an imaginary friend, and then say that my imaginary friend is “probably” not real. This would be the same, in essence, as saying god is probably not real. As cute as the “tooth fairy agnostic” idea is (meaning you are agnostic about god’s existence the same way you are agnostic about the tooth fairy’s), I have never really understood the argument that we must be agnostic about invented superstitions. God is made up, just like the tooth fairy, and that’s the way it is! 🙂

Nevertheless I agree that the ad is unlikely to generate much positive response. I think atheist advertising and outreach should focus on things that make us seem like decent people rather than snarky people, and this ad sort of fails.

The ad does have some shock value, but nothing like what the churches teach the children in Sunday schools.

Off topic, but did anyone else notice that the thermometer for donations is over $42,000 with a month and a half to go! Maybe someone else will jump in to give a pledge amount. Way to go people!

I have to agree with Hemant on this one.

While one could quibble over interpreting this as either a probabilistic vs. absolute statement, I think it’s straightforward to say that it mocks religious belief. Best not to confuse mockery with criticism if you’re trying to be civil! 😉

It’s simply a more offensive statement than most other bilboards: “Show me the proof” is quite different than “You are wrong.” It also opens the door for religious believers to place the burden of proof on the FFRF (yes, one can’t prove a negative, I know, but it simply BEGS others to demand the FFRF back up their claim, then claim victory when the FFRF provides them with “insufficient” justification).

Sure, it might be targeted towards like-minded individuals, but I think it’s fair to ask whether they couldn’t have been just as effective in their advertising without being offensive. Unless being offensive was their intent…

Brings up an interesting question: “Should atheists condone public mockery of religion? If so, when should or shouldn’t they?”

Although most of the detracting comments above mine have a lot of merit, this ad is a wonderful troll and will achieve its purpose: provoke discussion amongst the population.

I feel it is correct to say there is no god or gods with as much certainty as one can say there are no leprechauns, unicorns, flying spaghetti monsters, or fantastic creatures in a story I wrote myself.

If indeed it were possible that there is some force or being that births universes, it is simply a natural phenomenon beyond our current understanding. Gods are supernatural and exist beyond reason, in the realm of myth. Myths are creative and sometimes interesting stories but they are certainly not fact.

There is no God. There are no gods.

Yes, I’m a terrible person for not believing or even considering the possibility of any one of thousands of contradictory religions gods, but I’m sure they’ll have all the opportunity to address my feelings on the issue with me after I’m dead. *snicker*

“Yes, Virginia there is almost certainly no God” doesn’t carry quite the same impact.

To most of you commenting — In The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins says he puts himself at a 6 (leaning toward 7) on a scale from 1 (I know God exists) to 7 (I know god doesn’t exist).

Is he wrong? Should he have put himself at a 7? Isn’t that the same line of reasoning here?

Someone at a 6 can and will say “There is no God” in the same sense that “There is no Santa Claus.” Dawkins definitely makes this clear, and stated in regards to the UK ad campaign that he wished it didn’t say ‘probably’ and that God is about as probable as the tooth fairy (I don’t have a source atm; I can find it if someone really cares).

Atheists can and SHOULD say “There is no God.” Though it may be disputed, it is a statement of fact rather than opinion.

I’m a convinced and passionate atheist who just loves that deliciously condescending litotic ‘probably’ – much preferring arch playfulness from above to boorish blustering from below. This playfully courteous dismissive usage, though, would be a nicety better highlighted by adopting: More than probably there are no gods – the simple addition of a pluralising ‘s’ packing a far heftier punch.

This way of pithily downsizing deity – likening the one to the usually more vigorously dismissed many (Odin, Wakanda, et al) – is an often-missed trick that should always be kept in mind. Just a little less effective on Hindus, I would imagine!

_____

Hemant, No Dawkins is correct in his opinion. I agree with Dawkins, but that doesn’t mean I have to qualify every statement I make with “probably.” I will be writing about this tomorrow on Dangerous Talk. Or would it be more accurate to say that I will “probably” be writing about it because the world might end tonight. You never know for certain, lol.
-Staks

God’s existence, to me, is as close to 0% as I can imagine. I would bet my life on the idea that god doesn’t exist. But that doesn’t make the billboard accurate

Yes, it freakin’ does. There is no way you qualify stuff this much in your everyday life. Is every statement you make untrue, then?

Hemant, I don’t think you can say it is not accurate. It might be, you don’t know. It is probably better to say that it is probably accurate or that it is not accurate in your opinion. 😉

There are no gods. I am convinced that this statement is accurate. OK, I might be wrong (something that few Christians will admit to) but I doubt that I am. Dawkins is talking about a spectrum of probabilities in the God Delusion. As a scientist he is examining the god hypothesis as a demonstrably assertion. Gods cannot be demonstrated (it would invalidate faith to do so), defined in a non contradictory way (not that it is up to a sceptic to define what we are sceptical about), poked, prodded or measured. If there are gods then they are as invisible, intangible, odourless and silent as the greatest pink unicorn ever to not exist.

But we might be wrong.

I’ve thought of another reason why I like and dislike the advert. To the statement “There is no God” a theist can respond “Oh, yes there is” in true pantomime style. This isn’t an argument. An argument isn’t just a contradiction. An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a proposition. “There is no God” puts theists in a defensive position which I like as it forces them to defend there view (or just ignore the advert) but it doesn’t promote dialogue or discussion on the subject because it is a closed assertion.

I posted my response on Dangerous Talk.
-Staks

Hemant says:

Is he wrong? Should he have put himself at a 7? Isn’t that the same line of reasoning here?

No; the line of reasoning is that there is no dogma or rule here.

Atheists vary. The issue is not that we should pick one correct place, as you seem to be suggesting by saying that certain statements about your own beliefs or lack of beliefs are “wrong”. Atheism doesn’t have a set of “right” or “wrong” ways to disbelieve in god.

To say that you 99.99999999999….% believe that there is no god or gods does not qualify a person to claim Atheism. This person would clearly be an agnostic. We need to be completely committed to our beliefs, or we will be seen as having doubt and showing fear. We have catered to the whims of the religious for far too long (centuries). Every day I am bombarded by images of Jesus, crosses, churches, billboards stating that I need to trust in God or go to church, etc. I spend money that has religious propaganda worded all over it, and am expected to accept this. We have to hear our “leaders” say “god bless” after every speech, have to “swear” to tell the truth “so help me god” in court (my last appearance in court went over like a “fart in church”….I was threatened with contempt of court, but didn’t give in, so the judge finally had to settled for my “I give my word as an honorable man” statement because I brought up the fact of my rights). I could go on with examples, but we are all very aware of them. So there is nothing wrong with stating our beliefs in public.
I do believe that we lower ourselves to the level of the religious if we are offensive about it, so we must use our “logic” we profess to have in better taste.
The Santa is a bad idea, as well as the wording. I hate the fact that Christmas promotes the belief in and the imagery of a magical being who leaves presents for the good (it’s a precursor to the belief in another fictional being), and to associate our belief with this Christian icon and childhood myth is wrong. We need to associate our image with reality and fact. We will never be accepted by the religious, but if we use common sense and fact to voice our beliefs, we may be seen as rational, and more people will see the sense and strength of our logic. We have no beliefs that promote hate or bigotry, and we have the strength of science and logic to move us in the direction we need to go. We don’t need to be rude to be right. That makes us wrong.
Maybe the ad should say, “We are Atheists, and we believe there is no god. Want to know why? Research it.” It shows no shame, and it gives a person the choice to check us out and see what we are about. And get rid of the Santa, so there is more room to say something important without being insulting.

I say There is No God with the same certainty that I say Your hair will not spontaniously turn hot pink at the count of three…..
For all practical purposes, there is no god.
And the Santa angle introduces children to the concept that belief or non-belief in God is a choice they too can make…. Many children grow up not knowing they can leave religion behind them.
Even the Imagine No Religion billboards were declared to be going too far by the believers. It’s time we started bombarding them with mockery and criticism, at the very least to try to dull their hypersensitivity (hypersensitivity leads to censorship…)

But logically/philosophically, it’s not accurate. God’s existence, to me, is as close to 0% as I can imagine.

I disagree. I think the billboard is accurate. Not “probably” accurate, not “as close to accurate as we can conceive of”, just accurate.

I don’t understand what is logically or philosophically inaccurate in stating that “there is no God”. Would you not agree that God is a logically inconsistent concept?

The ad says nothing about the reality or unreality of Santa Claus. In fact, it makes it look like Santa is doing the talking here. Therefore it does not ruin the fun of Christmas and is not insulting to children.

Like so many others here, I beg to disagree. I can and do state there is no God. Unequivocally.

No, this does not put the burden of proof on me. That’s semantics. The god people making a ridiculous assertation then if you dare to say it is just that instead of proving what they asserted, they cry prove I’m wrong! I don’t have to. You have to prove you’re right!

I absolutely love this in every way! I love the whole phony cutsey Yes Virginia story. I think it’s charmingly quaint and pretty in that nauseating way only enjoyed at Christmastime. And I’m a big believer in the Santa myth as a great lesson in free thought for kids everywhere. Besides, Santa’s just plain fun.

And I’m really sick of us tip-toeing around on egg shells so afraid of offending the Christians even while they be offensive as hell. I love the in-your-face of this.

I am so proud to be a member. I will have to send these comments along to them in a note of encouragement and thanking them for spending my membership dues well. When my membership comes due, I hope to change my membership to a lifetime.

They allow monthly payments to do this now and once the membership is paid for, hopefully, I can continue to send a like amount to continue supporting them though admittedly I’ll at first do this buying books and t-shirts and music I want. I’ve been searching high and low for something no one seems to sell anymore. Regular old bookmarks, not that silly dangling jewelery for books that pulls out in a purse. I was thrilled to see that FFRF is selling a set of six. I will be buying myself a little Happy Winter stocking stuffer pay day.

Have I just been living under a rock? I had not ever heard the story behind the message (the little girl named Virginia asking if their was a Santa). Did anyone else have to have that explained to them or did I just miss out on something everyone else already knew?

In your dreams, Sheila, baby. In your dreams. Life, real life, isn’t as bad as you’re making it out to be. You don’t really need that crutch. You just think you do. Throw it down and walk. Before you know it, you’ll be walking with a spring in your step and your head held high actually feeling good about yourself instead of like a dirty sinner.

As a matter of fact, hon, you have staked your life on it. And, sadly, thrown it away on a mere fantasy.

Freedom of speech is freedom of ALL speech. Being in favor of freedom of speech most directly means being in favor of speech that you do not particularly agree with. Of course most people are in favor of something being said that they agree with. I do not agree with the statement of the ad, however I strongly agree with it’s being present. We all could debate whether there is or isn’t a/any god/gods for the rest of time (obviously, as we have been for as long as we humans have existed). The point of freedom of speech is not being assaulted in any form for stating your beliefs. You can’t “prove” there is no god and I can’t “prove” that there is, hence BELIEF. Both stances take an equal amount of faith. So, of course, all Christians aren’t going like this ad; but as I see above, all Athiests aren’t going to like it either. So what. It is an ad. I don’t like tons of ads for reasons that vary in a wider range than religion.

freedomofhatespeech, who is saying that to say “Jesus is the only savior” hateful and mean? Forcing that opinion on others and restricting differing views is certainly something to disagree with but if you want to say “Jesus is the only savior”, “Allah is the only savior” or “Odin is the only savior” then knock yourself out.

Too bad we do not live in a perfect world where we really can have our own opinions and let others have theirs.

That is precisely what the atheist posters are about.

freedomofhatespeech, we are in agreement. I think it is a shame that you seem to think that atheists as a group (there’s an oxymoron if ever I heard one) are out to deny the rights of others.

I don’t agree with the message this ad is posting. It claims that ‘there is no god’ which I don’t agree with. I am a diehard atheist, but to make the claim that there isn’t one… is ridiculous.

Logic and Reasoning is typically the ways of the non-religious… and if it was so, then it would say ‘There MAY NOT BE a God’.

Also, this just seems to be a Jab at the religious. Which, I’m sure I’ll get hell for at Christmas time… but, I don’t think they should be taken down, but I don’t approve of or endorse their message.

I am not a christian, being a Born Pure Natural Witch, the only kind that exists. But let me tell you people something that hoot and hollar about Nothing you know about, Christmas being for Pagans. I am not a Pagan for the word means “ignorant peasent” but Witch I am, Witch I be. And if you don’t know about The Gods, and noticed I mentioned plural Gods, then you should keep your doors locked at night when the Wind Howls looking for people…just….like….you. You are easy targets.

**that is not to say that this specific ad is doing such, it is a free statement and is not directly condescending to anyone, and those who take it overly offensive need to take a step back and look at what they do.

How long will the FFRF go on positively affirming God’s non-existence without evidence?

Is this not what they condemn as “faith”?

They are doing it this year and they did it last year:

http://atheismisdead.blogspot.com/2008/12/dan-barker-and-neo-pagan-atheism.html

Jennifer, are you expecting the non-christians to refuse a day off? Besides, there is barely anything about christmas that is uniquely christian. Throwing away the obvious (Santa, reindeer, frosty, christmas trees, rampant consumerism, etc.) the whole idea of a winter feast with family and friends long, long predates christianity. Beyond that, the whole nativity story is a patchwork of previous myths (virgin births, marked by a star, visited by sages, endangered by the local ruler, son of god, etc.)

It should also be noted that Dec 25 was not considered to be jesus’ birthday until the church decided to co-opt the day to overtake the popular pagan traditions/mythra’s birthday/saturnalia. The nativity story states that the “shepherds watched the flocks at night” which would only happen in the spring, when newborns were about. Therefore, jesus’ birthday was originally celebrated in the spring and was a very solemn and reverent holiday much in the jewish tradition that proceeded it. In the United States christmas regained the solemn and reverent tone it once had because the christians here knew that all the fun parts were inherited from pagans and they rejected that.

So, I wrote all that to write this:

Um, so just to confirm, you’re planning to celebrate the birth of your savior respectfully and without all the fun pagan parts in the spring, correct?

Merry Christmas Jennifer. Sadly my office is closed on Christmas Day, Boxing Day and on the following Monday as a bank holiday. I don’t have a choice about going to work. This is the same on the other bank holidays. In my country some of us also get the Queen’s birthday off. My partner is employed by the education authority and works term time only. She also has no choice about the days that she works.

With that in mind I spent the day with my family free in the joy that there is no hypocrisy in not going to work when the workplace is shut.

Unless you are suggesting that people who work days are hypocritical for not working nights as well?

Also who is decrying Christmas? Christmas is great. It just isn’t religious any more.

There’s no need to always say “probably.” The existence of God is an absurd claim, it’s not a philosophical sin to refute it completely. I would think such a well-rounded atheist as yourself would not fall victim to the fallacy of agnosticism. Simply because someone claims something, we must then legitimize their ridiculous claim (and diminish our argument) by being forced to say it’s only “probably” not true? If someone walks up to you and says “Hello, I’m an orange,” we can say without a doubt that that is not true. However, if the person were to prove he was in fact an orange, you should then acknowledge that it is true. But are we really expected to treat every ridiculous claim as a legitimate hypothesis?
There’s nothing wrong with claiming something 100%; this obsession with taking the most noble philosophical stance is pointless. We have every reason to say there is no God, because there is no evidence. The only philosophical obligation we have is to keep an open mind; which simply means that we are willing to change our minds if the evidence requires it. If Christians prove God exists, or Muslims prove Allah exists, or it turns out that the Greeks were right, I’ll be the first to convert. That’s all open-mindedness requires of us. Until that day, I say with complete certainty THERE IS NO GOD.