The Ethical Humanist Society of Chicago vs. Sunsara Taylor

The answer was announced during the last ten seconds of the video.

She tried to stage a walk-out to disrupt the event.

By the way….

Since when is changing one’s mind and cancelling an invitation unethical?

Mark, two weeks before the date is a little late to make arbitrary schedule changes.

I expect that there is a lot more to this tale than what’s here before us. … and I’m not particularly interested in knowing more. Trite little squabbles like this are oft best left unremarked… I’m only drawn in as far as this because the irony.

One can be good, and is probably better, without ethics

That said, her presence at the meeting seems vindictive and immature.

i pretty much have to agree.

that whole situation has gotten way out of hand over something that is pretty trivial. They disinvited her, so what? she needed to take the higher route and move on. but she didn’t, so if you ask me, it sounds like she’s the one responsible for all the crap that came with blowing the situation out of proportion, including the police brutality. who knows why they police were called, but it was the right of the ehsc. maybe they had to take how petty this woman was going to be in consideration.

i’m not saying uninviting her was wrong or right. i’m saying that sunsara handling it the way she did was juvenile.

According to Sunsara’s publicist, there was some controversy about her other social/political views (she’s a Communist, for one) — some of them distortions of her actual views — and she was disinvited rather quickly.

Sure you do. Happens all the time. Recall the flack about winning the Dawkins award a while back. Once they realized their error, they should have definitely uninvited him. Or if the Ethics society had accidentally invited someone they learned to be a Holocaust denier. Remember that communists advocate totalitarian dictatorship, one of the most unethical and immoral positions imaginable.

The answer was announced during the last ten seconds of the video.

She tried to stage a walk-out to disrupt the event.

So what? Are you suggesting that people don’t have the right to voluntarily choose to boycott an event?

The real answer is that her political views were outside the mainstream. If you look at the history of police repression of unconventional ideas, they’re lucky that they didn’t experience anything worse than being maced and beaten.

Anyone who reads Dispatches From The Culture wars on Scienceblogs ought to be fairly familiar with unwanted police brutality… As a college student right now, I’ve personally seen what happens when people can’t be civil with each other – they call the cops instead of walking next door and asking someone to turn their music down or move the party inside. Let’s just be nice and talk to each other, mmkay?

Before becoming UU I was a board member of the Ethical society of Austin and some of the stuff they did was really bizarre. My guess is this is similar to the problem down here with the leaders. Too many had this stringent idea of what should happen and would throw a fit if something appeared to not follow their ideology of the ethical society. I quit after 6 months and never returned.

Remember that communists advocate totalitarian dictatorship, one of the most unethical and immoral positions imaginable

Did one of our respective political science instructors redefine communism? Or, what form of communism is it which she advocates? ’cause my knowledge of the ideal of communism is exactly the opposite of a totalitarian dictatorship. I’d grant that in practice it hasn’t turned out well or as Marx initially thought it ought to, but to say advocating communism is to promote something which was the state of affairs in, say, the USSR is like saying advocating democracy is to promote the ideas of a malevolent dictator who initially rose to power through a democratic process.

Also, it wasn’t just boycotting the event. If that was the case, she’d have stayed away from the event and used something like her blog or a press release to both publicly state why and to reprimand the EHSC for uninviting her over what was (apparently) just a conflict of ideology. But instead she tried to stage a walk-out, it was intentionally trying to cause a scene. Which I would also say was probably not the best way to deal with it, but I also concur that there might be something unknown about the reasons for uninviting her.

I emailed EHSC to see if they had a formal statement of why they uninvited her.

Sad, but funny. The simplest explanation for the dis-invite is that most members of the program committee didn’t do their homework – probably only 1 or 2 people knew anything about Sunsara Taylor. After they announced she was speaking, their prospective audience probably pointed out that Sunsara Taylor is a little bit crazy. The committee members who failed to their homework the first time probably heard a prior podcast or radio appearance by Sunsara Taylor. Driven by their guilt and the almost comedic strangeness of Sunsara Taylor’s views, they panicked, and insisted she was dis-invited.
Sunsara Taylor is crazy, but no fool. She knows an opportunity to make a scene. She plans a walk-out. As she’s making her scene, somebody else panics, and calls the police. The police probably grew up during the cold war, their childhoods dominated by stories about World War III, the looming Soviet Apocalypse. Now they’re confronted, for the first time, with a real live communist. They too panic.
People are much worse decision makers than we like to admit, and sometimes a few seemingly minor errors can quickly add up to shockingly stupid results.

Let me step back for a moment and say I think this whole thing has been blown up way out of proportion.

By Sunsara’s people (the Revolutionary Communist Party), specifically. They can be a little pushy. All the more reason not to pull a stunt like a last-minute cancellation, though. I don’t know if the EHSC decided it didn’t like her beliefs or if they just decided they didn’t like her, but plenty of other nonbelievers have steered clear of her just because she’s a Communist, which is shameful and a touch ironic.

muggle says:

Did the police go too far? Yes, obviously. However, if she was asked to leave and refused, if they asked the camera guy to stop videotaping on their property and he refused, what choice did the Society have but to call them.

According to Sunsara, the police were called ahead of time. She also says:

At no point during her brief statement was Sunsara asked to stop speaking or to leave the premises. And at no point was anyone who was there to support her, including the photographer, asked to leave.

Now I have to say that her actions, including this stunt, and writing blog posts about herself in the third person, don’t cast her in the best light. However, especially living in Chicago, the EHSC should know that YOU DON’T CALL POLICE TO DEAL WITH NON-THREATENING DISPUTES. Frankly if what Sunsara wrote is correct, this action by the EHSC far overshadows their previous unethical actions with respect to the invitation, and the immature behavior on the part of Sunsara.

I think we’re putting too much attention on the dis-invitation and her later attendance and too little on the police action.

If we are to assume she was dis-invited for her views then I would have to say that it does not speak well of the Ethical Society in terms of their willingness to hear differing opinions. However the fact that we may be missing data about possible conflicts unrelated to her views and my personal ignorance of those views (they may be so totally out there as to warrant dis-invitation. Someone found to be a creationist would be dis-invited from an Evolutionary Biology conference) makes everything before the event harder to judge. Where they unethical? Maybe, but possibly they were just a tad rude.

However the event itself is a whole different story. There were plenty of witnesses and hopefully they will give an honest account of what happened. Keep in mind that the person assaulted was NOT Sunsara but a man recording her, so the issue does not seem to be that Sunsara was being thrown out but the fact that the thing was being taped. Unless someone can show how this man was being disruptive and that he was publicly asked to leave and refused, calling the police was unwarranted and yes, unethical. You don’t call the police because someone you don’t like is at an event. The police are for dangerous and disruptive individuals, not passive-aggressive attendees.

… plainclothes and uniformed police who had been called in earlier by officials of the Ethical Humanist Society of Chicago (EHSC) dragged out, maced and arrested a man for videotaping Sunsara Taylor as she stood near her seat and made a statement before the start of that morning’s program about the shameful cancellation of her long planned talk to EHSC that day on the topic “Morality without Gods.”

The shocking incident took place at the insistence of the president of EHSC. About 40 people witnessed the videographer being brutalized by the police in the foyer of the facility. An attorney demanded that the police stop brutalizing him when five officers piled on him as he lay face down on the floor. 6 police cars arrived within minutes.

If this account is accurate (and I note that it is provided by someone who is not exactly unbiased in this situation), then it would seem that the EHSC were expecting trouble of some kind and were prepared to squelch it if the need arose, but it also suggests that the police are the ones who really escalated things themselves.

Five officers piled onto one guy, maced him, and arrested him, all because he was filming a woman speaking?!? And six additional police cars arrived to provide backup “within minutes” against a drama queen and a guy with a video camera (who by that time was already subdued)?!? If this account isn’t severe hyperbole, then the officers involved (and possibly the Chicago PD itself) need to suffer severe sanctions. However, I think that the odds of that happening are slim to laughable.

~David D.G.

I like the “drama queen” characterization of Sunsara Taylor. I think EHSC, on the face of it, made some mistakes. However, I do not think they were made with malice.

I do wonder at Ms. Taylor’s actions. It is well within a private organization’s right to not want someone there to speak, to “dis-invite” them. If it is seemingly against their internal rules, bylaws, etc. to do so, then it is the place of the membership to deal with the issues and/or violations, not people who have not made that commitment. IOW, it is perfectly acceptable to be upset and write letters, but it is going a little far to show up and heckle the lay leadership and membership.

Still, the police overreacted. Public safety is not a toy, but a rather blunt instrument, that should only be used in emergencies.

It seems to me that like most bad situations, there was a perfect storm of mistakes, malice, and lack of forethought.

~ Rowan

I think that the conversation here is the democratic response- back and forth – that the incident and situation call for – and not much more is helpful.

The RCP has strong positions e.g. revolutionary dictatorship as a positive) that defy the liberal, pluralistic, humanistic tenents of local Ethical Societies as I know them across the country, but those extreme positions in no way disqualify a person holding them from participating in a program, as long as folks know what they are being presented. sounds perhaps like this part of the presenters’ biography wasn’t in the foreground when the plan was made, and was later a rationale for withdrawing the program offer.

I went over to Sunsara Taylor’s blog to read what she had to say and see some of her other posts. I saw that she was hauled out of Ebenezer Church for yelling at Rick Warren in January, and, in a bit of irony, that she doesn’t allow comments on her blog posts.

I agree with those who said the EHSC shouldn’t have withdrawn the speaking invitation on short notice, and that six police officers dogpiling on the photographer is overkill. I also agree Taylor shouldn’t have created a scene at the meeting, but it seems like that’s her modus operandi as a response to perceived oppression–and I would guess, based on the fact that EHSC had an officer on scene, that they figured something like this would happen based on her past record, and it’s probably part of the reason her invitation was withdrawn.

Evan, thanks for posting. That is pretty much how I suspected the whole thing went down.

They were hellbound and determined to demand the podium. The classy thing to do would have been to leave and go to the private home.

And, sadly, Carol’s right. If she gets any attention out of this from the mainstream media, we will once again be painted as pinko, commie, amoral, egotistical, spoiled brats. Ms. Taylor did us no favors.

One further thing…

Someone cited the fact that she called Rick Warren a bigot as if this were “proof” that Sunsara was looking for a confrontation. Hello? Does someone here really want to argue that Rick Warren is NOT a bigot? He opposes gay marriage, thinks women are inferior and should obey their husbands, and believes the Bible is the “inerrant word of god”!!

Anyone who has seen her speak knows she may be controversial, but she is very thoughtful and she is looking for a real exchange and engagement.

I was there when she spoke at the U of MN last year and while a lot of what she said was new to people and controversial, everyone seemed to enjoy it and appreciate the openness of exchange.

At one point during the program, a young guy in the audience got all flustered trying to get his point out. He was really nervous and so he just blurted at her, “You are just full of shit!” Most of the audience laughed at his outburst, but Sunsara calmed people down and encouraged the guy to take a little time to work out his point. He did (and this included a lot of strong disagreement) but Sunsara very fairly responded to the substance of what he said, rather than going for the cheap dismissal (which would have been rather easy to do).

A group of thirty of us, including her and a bunch of students, went out for food and drinks afterwards. We had a great time, discussing, debating, her asking a lot of questions and listening — including to Christians and other believers.

“she caused a disruption until it became an altercation.”

I was at EHSC on Saturday for Sunsara’s workshop on the Liberation of Women and on Sunday. On Sunday Sunsara stood up by her chair before the program started, she did not disrupt the program, she said she was planning to leave and give her talk in exile if EHSC did not reverse its decision. She was never asked to stop speaking and was never asked to leave. She did not cause an altercation in any sense of the word.
The photographer who was documenting her words was grabbed by undercover and regular police, who were already at EHSC, at the direction of the society’s president.

I found this illuminating response to Evan Kane’s letter at Rational Response Squad.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/Ethical_Society_Woes

Submitted by darth_josh on November 2, 2009 – 9:27pm.
Evan K wrote: I am a member of the Ethical Humanist Society of Chicago and one of the members who initially supported Sunsara Taylor. It is now clear to me that from the moment she was dis-invited Sunsara saw an opportunity for a confrontation she could blog about.

Yep. Is one to remain silent when disavowed by people they consider fellow ideologues?

Evan K wrote: The program committees decision to change speakers for the November 1st platform was, at worst, ill informed and rude but hardly unethical. We are a society, not a public speakers corner and the decision to change speakers, at any time, is well within our rights both legally and ethically.

Hmmm. I’m trying hard to see it from your perspective. Is your ‘society’ ethical with regard to the society or everyone?

Evan K wrote: Did you happen catch where Sunsara made her statement in the video? It’s at the EHSC. The society sponsored a workshop with Sunsara on Saturday; and yes, another member did host an alternate Sunday lecture at her own home. And what unreasonable demand did the EHSC ask in return? That Sunsara and her group not disrupt the Sunday program.

Wow. I didn’t see a group. Did you see a group? Did you invite a group or just Sunsara?

How many people were in attendance at this Saturday meeting? I gather that more are present on Sunday. Correct?

Evan K wrote: Even after an apology letter was sent to Sunsara, the Saturday workshop confirmed and held, and the alternate lecture planned, there were members in the society that were afraid that Sunsara and her group would disrupt the Sunday program.

Wait. Apology letter? You called it an apology letter. Does anyone write apology letters for ethical actions?
Here’s that ‘group’ word again.
One begins to wonder if the society is afraid that its Sunday program might not meet with ethical standards. I’m pretty sure that the aforementioned ‘group’ only protests those things which merit protests such as they have engaged in the past.

Evan K wrote: That’s why the Sunday school children were moved off site for the day and the Skokie police department was asked to have an officer at the society.

A dainty woman and a cameraman scared the children and warranted police presence. IN CHICAGO????!!!! Even Palantine housewives are strong-willed enough to tolerate a woman and a cameraman.

Evan K wrote: Fools like me thought this was unnecessary and defended Sunsara up until Saturday evening. Why? Because just like she did at minute 9:27 of the video, Sunsara said she was only going to come to the society on Sunday prepared to give her talk and if she wasn’t given the podium she would leave to give her talk at the private home.
Don’t incorrectly paraphrase here, fucker. ‘giving the society up until the last minute’ and ‘ask for you to leave with me as I give my talk in exile’ is apparently what you misconstrued as ‘leave for the private home’.
What part of “Leave with me as I give my talk in exile” did you miss?

Evan K wrote: But that’s not what she did. Instead, as I suspect was always her intention, she caused a disruption until it became an altercation, and I say better with the police than one of our members.

She did exactly as she said she would do. She gave the society until the last minute to do the right thing, ‘the ethical thing’.
I find your callous observation of ‘better with the police’ to be reprehensible, nay disgusting.

Evan K wrote: The man who was arrested resisted the police officer when he was asked to leave private property. He was not kicked, beaten, clubbed or tazered; he was subdued with mace, handcuffed and taken into custody. The police officer that the man resisted was however bloodied in the altercation. Calling this an act of police brutality is not only unfair to the Skokie police department but is offensive to people who have actually suffered police brutality.

You’ll have to pardon my skepticism. I’ve watched people get maced, cuffed, and charged with resisting arrest because they tripped while being escorted from a place by police. Skokie police are not sui generis.

Evan K wrote: Even though the path to this unfortunate event was long and complicated in the end had Sunsara decided to not disrupt our event inside our building or even if she had just left when she was asked, there would have been no mace, no arrests and no blood.

And if she had been permitted to give the presentation she was INVITED to give, I’m sure the outcome would have been as rosy.

Evan K wrote: Sunsara Taylor should take a hard, introspective look at her own actions before continuing to lecture others on morality.

Oddly enough in my 37 years, the people that have said this are more in need of their own advice than anyone they speak to in public.

I must say you have my gratitude because this has piqued my curiosity about your ‘ethical society’.

I am a member of EHSC and wanted to respond to some of the rantings from Ms. Sunsara Taylor. First off – she was dis-invited because she refused to present the topic/subject matter that she had initially agreed to. Despite that breach of professionalism, she was still allowed to present her Saturday workshop in our building, regardless of her shameful, unprofessional antics – protesting in our parking lot with her group handing our flyers comprised of cut/paste email making her case that we had no “right” to disinvite her, speaking negativley about our group and it’s actions duing her workshop that was hosted in our building. Next, she was asked again, not to come on Sunday (She had repeatedly stated that she would come on Sunday to speak even though she had been asked not to – under the guise of “giving us a chance to do the right thing”) as we had lined up another speaker – she instead showed up in our parking lot with her crowd of 20+followers (cameras at the ready) marched past our board president who had asked first to speak with her and then as she pushed past him into the building – requested that she not disturb our meeting. She then proceeded to stand up in the audience and begin her rant again. Just to remind everyone that we are a private organizaiton run by volunteers. There was no “right” to speak just because she disagreed with our decision to rescind our invitation when her talk did not match the title she had agreed to.
Lastly, we had asked the police to be on alert on Sunday as her previous behavior had led us to believe that she intended to disrupt things and we did not know how far she and her followers would go. Our group consists of people of all ages kids through seniors and it is our responsiblity to ensure their safety to the best of our ability when they are in our building. As for the action of the police, they attempted to get the ‘photographer’ to leave peacefully – he would have none of it and fought with them as the other “followers” stood near by snapping pictures. One police officer was injured by this person as he resisted the police efforts to remove him from our building. The Skokie police behaved professionally and efficiently. It was an ugly scene brought on by Ms. Taylor’s arrogance and quest for martyrdom. The Ethical Humanist Society of Chicago has a long history of peaceful action and a reputation for presenting speakers espousing a wide range of views. I am appalled at the actions of Ms. Taylor and sickened that she brought her chaos into our midst. I thank you for your invitation to clarify this situation.

@ Darth_Josh

Wow. I didn’t see a group. Did you see a group? Did you invite a group or just Sunsara

I am assuming you were not there on Sunday otherwise you would know that there were about 40 of Sunsara’s people at our building.

Hmmm. I’m trying hard to see it from your perspective. Is your ’society’ ethical with regard to the society or everyone?…. Wait. Apology letter? You called it an apology letter. Does anyone write apology letters for ethical actions?

We are a society of people that value deed over creed. We aspire to lead our lives based on humanistic ideals. We do not march lock step to the beat of one voice, we are individuals and we are human. We make mistakes, both individually and as a group. When we make mistakes the best among us apologize and try to find compromise, as we tried to do with Sunsara. To think that apology and compromise is not consistent with an ethical life is yours and Sunsara’s shortcoming, not ours.

Yep. Is one to remain silent when disavowed by people they consider fellow ideologues?

If you think we are ideologues, much less fellow ideologues of Sunsara, you are gravely mistaken.

Don’t incorrectly paraphrase here, fucker. ‘giving the society up until the last minute’ and ‘ask for you to leave with me as I give my talk in exile’ is apparently what you misconstrued as ‘leave for the private home’.
What part of “Leave with me as I give my talk in exile” did you miss?

The only thing I missed was the part were Sunsara says she will disrupt our gathering until she gets her way or gets removed by the police… oh wait she doesn’t say that… ever… Fucker.

I find your callous observation of ‘better with the police’ to be reprehensible, nay disgusting.

I find your suggestion that elderly men and women get physical with young agitators stupid.

And if she had been permitted to give the presentation she was INVITED to give, I’m sure the outcome would have been as rosy.

She was then UN-INVITED. Have you never broken a date or canceled plans? We canceled our date, she showed up anyway.

Evan K wrote: Sunsara Taylor should take a hard, introspective look at her own actions before continuing to lecture others on morality.
Oddly enough in my 37 years, the people that have said this are more in need of their own advice than anyone they speak to in public.

I do my best to do this all the time. In fact, this is how I went from a supporter of Sunsara to a denouncer of her actions.

postscript, thanks for posting that. What a fiasco.

I am a long-time member of the EHSC and appreciate Hemant’s skepticism over Taylor’s characterization of this whole event. For the record, I am not on the program committee nor the board, but have followed these events closely. I’d like to address a few issues that Hemant and some commenters have raised.

First, with regard to the ‘last-minute dis-invitation’. Despite speculation by some commenters on this blog, the committee involved was aware of her political views and agreed to proceed with the proposal to have her speak on morality from an atheist perspective, explicitly stating that they were not interested in a talk about her political views. We ask all speakers to provide a 2-3 sentence description of their talks as part of our internal process – this information is included in our formal invitation to speak and in our monthly newsletter. A description of Taylor’s talk, initially requested this summer, was not received until mid-October, at which point the committee voted 7-2 to reject the proposed talk and extended an invitation to another speaker. As result, she never received the formal invitation on Society letterhead specifying the particulars of her talk that we always send to our speakers, but rather was informed about our decision to have a different speaker on Nov 1. [Despite Hemant’s assertion in his blog above, her Nov 1 talk was NOT widely publicized in our events calendar – by the time our Nov. newsletter came out, the Peace Corps program had been finalized and was listed. .I forgive him this one error and again appreciate his circumspect treatment of her claims. The Oct 31 workshop, which emerged through a different process within our community, was advertised and proceeded as planned]

To the extent that the decision appears to be last minute, it reflects the late receipt of information from Ms. Taylor. The fact that she persisted in asserting her ‘right’ to talk on Nov 1 on her blog after the committee told her their decision led our Board to send a second note clarifying the Society’s decision to have a different speaker on Nov 1, to which she also responded with renewed calls for her supporters to come on Nov 1 to hear her talk. Finally, those EHSC members who helped run her workshop on Oct 31 clearly stated that a member (who was present at the workshop) had made her home available for Ms. Taylor to talk on Nov 1, and she again repeated her intention to come speak in our main auditorium and encouraged her supporters to come hear her. I think it speaks volumes that we allowed her to come on Oct 31 despite her clear disregard for our Nov 1 program and that she used our podium as a platform from which to criticize us and to encourage her supporters to disregard our announced plans.

Second, with regard to the question of asking for police support. I encourage any of you who have been responsible for a group of children and a number of elderly and frail friends to think about what you would do when, despite clear communication on your part that you have made alternative plans, someone has publicly announced her intention to come and speak in your space and encouraged her supporters to come hear her. How could we responsibly NOT have told the police about the situation and think about strategies for insulating the kids from any potential conflict? I would MUCH rather have been proved wrong for worrying about this stuff than having been proved right that these people had no regard for our community’s well being and right to self governance.

Third, the question of the police’s treatment of the videotaper. Despite repeated requests that he stop, he continued taping so we turned to the policeman present for support. The videotaper reacted aggressively, causing the police officer to call for back up. By the end of the episode, one of the policemen was bleeding and required medical attention. As a result this incident, our program was delayed by about fifteen minutes and the audience included a number of upset and distracted people. The longer-term cost to our community remains to be seen.

I understand that some posters on this blog believe that the presence of the police officer may have created this outcome, but what if they hadn’t been there and Taylor’s supporters acted this aggressively anyway? If they had hurt one of our members, would those of you blaming the police be willing to hold the instigators responsible? I’m personally willing to value police officers as I try to value any person — they don’t deserve this sort of treatment any more than you or I. I also believe that people are responsible for their behavior and it strikes me as disingenuous to blame the policeman for the videotaper’s behavior. The videotaper may be free to behave how he wants but I don’t think that absolves him from responsibility for the consequences of his choices and actions.

Which brings me to a bigger point. The EHSC is a community committed to bringing out the best in ourselves and others, hopefully making the world a little better through our efforts large and small. We choose to act as stewards of a long tradition, a building bought with a member’s bequest, a growing Sunday school, a broad mix of programs, including our Sunday platform, and two huge ideas: that we should each act so as to elicit the best in ourselves and others; and that a volunteer organization like ours can run effectively through democratic processes. A month ago, I had never heard of Sunsara Taylor but, given the crash course I’ve just been through, I find myself wondering what she is a steward of.

I’m just having a hard time wrapping my mind around rudeness being considered part of ethical behavior.

I don’t know how much time passed between her submitting a program and the ESOC saying “no thanks”, so it’s possible they weren’t as rude as I think. Sure, they didn’t tell her no until less than 2 weeks prior, but if that was the day after she submitted her program that’s her fault, not theirs. But if they waited an unreasonable time, then it’s on them.

I’m a little disturbed by Evan K saying “the decision to change speakers, at any time, is well within our rights both legally and ethically” without admitting to it being a shitty thing to do, particularly on short notice. Part of being ethical is admitting your errors.

@Vincent

The formal description of Sunsara’s program was not received by the program committee until October 13. Sunsara was contacted about adjusting her talk to fit what the committee originally thought they were getting. She understandably refused to adjust her talk and the cancellation was emailed on October 19.

From that point on Sunsara was hell bent on getting her way no matter what.

Part of being ethical is admitting your errors.

I am not sure how many times I have to repeat that multiple apologies were sent to Sunsara.

Inviting her without completing our due diligence was a mistake. Dis-inviting her (in my opinion) compounded that mistake. But unethical? Come on! If one needs to be perfect, never making a single mistake, every day of ones life to be ethical, then there is not an ethical person in the world.

Attempt after attempt was made to find a solution that, although not ideal for either side, was palatable for both.

The society bent over backwards to appease this woman. She did not budge an inch.

Mr. Kane:

I don’t think it’s a “mistake” at all to invite someone that Anil Kashyap is going to have the vapors over. Telling him to try putting humanism ahead of his Fed-trained market fundamentalism would have made that decision even better. Actually allowing people to hear from an actual leftist for once would not have caused Mammon the market god to shake the timbers of your unethical corporatist society’s Sunday meeting house.

Nor is it a “mistake” to disinvite her then arrest her videographer. It is, as people have plainly told you, unethical. So is your PR flak attempt to soft-peddle that behavior.

Watch the last 30 seconds, if nothing else.

That is seriously bad advise that helps explain some of the ignorant statements made here. Better to start no later than 8:22, where Ms. Taylor explains the moral basis for her action.

The society bent over backwards to appease this woman.

Your lack of ethics is transparent in such hyperbolic statements. The society did not honor its commitment, and it would not have been bending backwards to do so.

She was then UN-INVITED. Have you never broken a date or canceled plans?

Your lack of ethics is evident in this disingenuous comparison.

There are two kinds of communists, political and non-political.

Nothing wrong with the non-political kind. If you want to join a commune go ahead.

The political kind is another matter altogether. They advocate the forced destruction of property rights. In other words they want to steal everyone’s stuff. They are therefore advocates of crime.

Perfectly valid to ban such speech the same way we ban incitement to crime in other cases. Especially since political communism has resulted in the deaths of nearly 100 million people.

Not sure if Taylor is the nice Hutterite kind of communist or the evil Marxist kind. Yes I said evil. Taylor might as well be a Nazi if shes a Marxist. Marxist killed even more than the Nazis.

Yeah, now we’ll here about now nice she is. I’m sure there were lots of sweet polite Nazis girls too.

The central question seems to revolve around why she was dis-invited. A post claiming to be from an EHS representative says:

To my knowledge and to the knowledge of every member I know, we have never “dis-invited any proposed speaker.

So why was Sunsara dis-invited at the last minute (an event planned months in advance is not canceled 2 weeks ahead of time).

What’s so freakin’ scary that they had to pull this at the last minute?

She’s a COMMUNIST, that’s what… and that’s supposed to be ruled totally out of order… see Brian Macker’s ridiculous assertion that “marxists are worse than Nazis.” Absolutely ahistorical BS; but this nonsense is used by the other C-ists (capitalists) to frighten everyone into line. Don’t question the fundamental validity of the way humanity organizes itself right now, because we all know the free market will eventually work out for us all… this international food crisis is just a little bump in the road.

We’re just supposed to keep singing cumbaya, drinking the Obama-Ade, and feeling all snuggly about our wonderful “peace corps” while half the planet starves to death on less than $2 a day?

If you ask me, living in an era where robot “drone” bombs killing penniless people in Afghanistan is bought and sold by GOOD people as the only “realistic” option to a world wracked with war, poverty, and other terrible things, I want to see more chaos, rabble rousing, and people foaming at the mouth to stop it! Given the problems she discusses, I’m amazed Sunsara is able to keep such a reasoned, respectful tone as she does!

Evan, your intellectually dishonest protestations won’t change the fact that the EHSC has embarrassed and humiliated itself.

“you can be good without ethics”
That is an oxymoron. Logically, how would you be good without an internal and external framework in which decide what is best? Values, ethics, morals or whatever you might call them are guides to our future behavior and the method by which we judge past behavior.”

Well when attending an ethics society meeting ends up with someone maced and bloodied on the floor, I think my point is made.

Just trust your feelings and empathy. You don’t need a theoretical framework.

Some are saying Sunsara this “dis-invitation” from EHSC has been blown out of proportion, or is trivial. Or that Sunsara is pulling a stunt, is pushy, or “blowing things out of proportion”.

This misses what’s really going on here and why it matters. Many are asking the question — what was the reason for the dis-invitation? In Sunsara’s Youtube video she says the motivations for this cancellation were overtly and hysterically anti-communist, whipping up fear, spreading rumors and slander, wrenching her words out of context so as to convey their opposite meaning. This is what the EHS Board did not address, and what is unethical about the dis-invitation.

This “dis-inviting” of people who have unconventional, radical or communist political views is happening all the time. Just in the past week, the screenwriter of of Milk was disinvited from Hope College in MI because his gay advocacy was considered divisive and not educational.

In her Oct. 29 letter Sunsara said, “These days, there is all too much self-censorship and acquiescence to the curtailment of unconventional discourse in academic and intellectual life, in political discourse, and on matters of morality and ethics. The decision of the Society must be seen in the context of, and as contributing to, this broader chill and this is why it is unacceptable.”

And, “Those times when it is most difficult to stand up for principle, those times when standing up for principle requires going against the grain and sometimes even sacrifice, are precisely the times when it is most required and can make the greatest difference.”

This is what Sunsara is doing. This is why it matters.

I am a member of the programming committee of the Ethical Humanist Society of Chicago and I voted to cancel Ms. Taylor’s appearance on Sunday, November 1st.

Here are my reasons.

See “That_which_doesnt_destroy_us” comment above re: the circumstances and the nature of the invitation extended to Ms. Taylor. In mid-October, the committee finally received the description of her talk.

When I read the description, what I saw was a recitation of the usual suspects—globalization, American imperialism, Christian fascism (and a few odd bits as well–movement of women into the work force and immigration). Next, I saw Ms. Taylor’s answer to all that ails the world—communist morality. We asked for “atheist morality.” We got “communist ideology,” which was precisely the talk we said we did not want.

I then watched several videos of Ms. Taylor, read her blog, and listened to a recent interview (http://mnatheists.org/content/view/320/163/) the title of which is the same as the talk she was planning to give at the Society. I concluded that Ms. Taylor had replaced one god with another—her faith in communism is complete and not susceptible to critical examination on her part; that her evidence that communism is the “solution” rests largely on the denial of the historical record (“you have been told lies”) and wishful thinking about the malleability of human nature; that she is an incoherent thinker; and that she is a poor speaker.

Our speakers should and do represent a broad range of diverse viewpoints. However, what we hope for is that they offer insight into the challenges of our time and at least attempt to address them with rational, evidence-based and well thought-out arguments. Ms. Taylor’s talk would have been an ideological rant.

That is why I voted to cancel Ms. Taylor’s appearance on Sunday, November 1st.

-But I think I’ve made my point: Ends justify means. Nothing else ever could.-

No, you didn’t. You just threw straw men at me and waffled about hostages.

You basically said originally that maximum force (as long as it is within the police’s regulations) is allowed, regardless of the situation. “The end justifies the means” implies exactly that.

I would ask whether 5 police officers piling onto a camera man and macing him counts as police discerning correctly “what level of force is merited in each situation”

Ahhh but police are allowed to use mace so thats ok. It’s in the rule book.

Also, Evan K suggests that the EHSC arranged for Sunsara to speak at the private home of one of their members — as if they were really making an effort to find a format for Sunsara to still give her talk.

My understanding is that the EHSC had NOTHING to do with arranging this and that the person who hosted Sunsara’s talk on Sunday was considering quitting the EHSC over this whole incident.

What ever that individual decides to do, the fact that Evan tries to credit this private invitation to the EHSC is just dishonest.

Well, now I know to never view the EHS as anything other than a joke. Or am I too much the Left of the Left to be allowed to be an Atheist. I mean, the Democrats have driven me out for not believing and being too far left.

Bacopa- What force, let alone “deadly” was used other than by the pigs?

I am one of the few people who has been active in both the Ethical Humanists and Sunsara’s group, World Can’t Wait.

As such, I believe that my involvement in both groups gives me a certain insight.

I was at the Ethical Humanist Society meeting on Sunday when the photographer was arrested. A few days earlier, I received a call from a friend who, like me, is active in both groups. She told me about the Ethical Humanists’ decision to disinvite Sunsara Taylor because of her involvement in the Revolutionary Communist Party, and about how Sunsara was planning to be there on Sunday morning even though EHS had already replaced her. I decided to go.

I arrived at the Ethical Humanist Society building at about 10:15. To my surprise an unmarked police car was sitting outside the building, on the street. As I drove into the parking lot, I recognized some people from World Can’t Wait who were standing outside.

I parked my car and went over to talk to the World Can’t Wait people. They were handing out literature, including a long letter by Sunsara protesting EHS’s decision to disinvite her. I chatted with some people I knew from World Can’t Wait. I learned that Sunsara was actually there, and a WCW member pointed her out to me and offered to introduce us. I passed on the offer and hurried inside so I could get a good seat.

Inside the lobby, I talked to some of the EHS people. One woman told me that Sunsara had already spoken at EHS on Saturday. A man I talked to told me that he had come specifically to hear Sunsara speak. He didn’t know she’d been replaced on the program by a presentation from two Peace Corps volunteers, and was surprised to learn this.

Then, at about 10:20, the WCW people came inside as a group and headed for the auditorium. I followed them.

Normally the EHS holds Sunday School for the children in the auditorium between 9:30 and 10:30. Sometimes adults come in and sit in the chairs, watching the Sunday School, perhaps singing the songs if any songs are being sung, and waiting for the main program to begin. But on this day there was no Sunday School. Instead recorded music was playing and adults were sitting quietly in the chairs, waiting for the program to begin.

The World Can’t Wait people headed down the center aisle to the front of the auditorium, and took seats in the front row. I hesitated to sit down. I had planned to meet my friend, the woman who called me and told me about Sunsara, but she wasn’t with the WCW people and I couldn’t see here anywhere. I didn’t know where to sit. Should I sit with the people I knew from WCW, or should I sit with some of my friends from EHS? I stood at the back of the auditorium, uncertain of what to do.

Then Sunsara stood up from her seat and began talking, attempting to make herself heard over the sound of the music. She was a short, petite, and very attractive young woman with a dark complexion, dark hair, and black plastic-frame glasses. While she spoke, a short guy with a bald head and a funny-looking goatee photographed her with what appeared to be a cell phone camera.

Sunsara protested the EHS decision to disinvite her, and said that it is part of a general crackdown on opinion in academia and elsewhere, citing the removal of Norman Finkelstein from DePaul University as an example. She admitted that the EHS had the “right” to disinvite her, “but their decision was not ethical!” she said. And at that moment, the police came in.

There were two policemen. One was wearing the uniform of the Skokie P.D.; the other was in plainclothes but I figured out he was a policeman from his behavior. I expected them to grab Sunsara, but instead they grabbed the photographer, one on each arm. They then took him down the center aisle, straight toward me!

The cops and the photographer passed within two feet of me. As they passed, I heard the plainclothes officer say in a low voice, “If you resist, you will be maced. Do you understand?” The photographer turned to the cop and said, “Why don’t you mace me right here and now, you motherfuckers?” And then the plainclothes officer slammed the photographer against the back wall, knocking him down.

Pandemonium erupted in the auditorium. The WCW people jumped from their seats and started shouting “Let him go! Let him go!” This quickly turned into a chant in unison. One EHS regular tried to start a chant, “Go in peace! Go in peace!” but no one joined him. Meanwhile people were jumping out of their chairs and following the two cops. EHS members began to protest the behavior of the police. The two cops who had the photographer dragged him out into the hall. The WCW people followed the policemen out into the hall. More policemen came in.

In the hall, things started to look more and more like a riot. A huge knot of people formed in the hall, and forward movement became almost impossible. At the center of the knot was the photographer, on the floor, with the cops all around on top of him. I couldn’t see the photographer clearly. Surrounding the cops were the WCW people, maybe a dozen of them, shouting that the photographer had been maced, he’d been beaten, and all this was just for taking pictures. Crowding in behind the WCW people were the EHS people.

As I tried to get closer, to see what was happening to the photographer, a WCW woman I didn’t recognize got in front of me and said, “Why didn’t you stop them?” And I said, “What are you talking about?” She said, “You saw what the cops did to him. They beat him just for taking pictures. Why didn’t you try to stop them?” And I said, “I’m not going to stop a cop.”

The woman then left me, but by that time the police had moved out into the lobby. I followed, but more and more police were coming in. I heard police sirens and through the glass windows I saw more police cars pulling up outside the building. The police began herding people–the WCW people were herded outside, along with the photographer and the arresting officers, while the EHS people were held inside. The trouble is, since both groups consisted entirely of white people who did not wear clothing establishing their group identity, the police had trouble telling the two groups apart. So the police began to get in front of people and demand to know if they were with the “Ethical Humanists,” or with “them.” If you were with the Ethical Humanists, you stay inside. If you were with “them”–outside.

A young girl I knew from EHS came and asked what was going on. She hadn’t been in the auditorium. I told her about Sunsara’s demonstration, and about how the police had arrested the man photographing her. The girl was very upset, and demanded to know why the police would do such a thing. I speculated that they went after the photographer rather than Sunsara because if you’re going to use violence, it doesn’t look as bad to do it to a man.

Some EHS members overheard me and got very angry. A short, bearded, middle-aged man cut in and told the girl a slightly distorted version of the events. Then a big middle-aged man with a gray mustache and a backwards golf cap cut in and demanded to know whether the girl and I were members, or whether we were with “them.” The girl replied that of course she wasn’t a member, since she was a “junior.” (To be a “member” of the EHS, you have to pay dues). Then the man turned to me and demanded to know what I was doing there. I thought I was about to be thrown out, but a friend of mine at the EHS said, “He’s OK; he’s with me.” And so I was not thrown out of the building.

I didn’t know what to do. Should I go outside and stand in solidarity with my comrades in World Can’t Wait, or should I go inside and sit with my friends in the Ethical Humanist Society? In the end, I decided to go back into the auditorium, since this seemed the place where I would be least likely to be arrested. Also, the man who had prevented me from being thrown out was in there.

Inside the auditorium a couple of Ethical Humanists were leading the audience in the song, “Keep on the Sunny Side.” I sat through this, though I did not sing.

After this, the moderator spoke. He tried to make a joke about the “excitement,” which elicited some nervous laughter. He then explained that Sunsara had been originally scheduled to speak, but EHS had decided to cancel her presentation because her speech “would not reflect the values of the Ethical Humanists.” The moderator also mentioned Sunsara’s use of the term “Christian fascists” as an example of the intolerance that they didn’t want to encourage.

Then the lecture began. It was two young men discussing their experiences in the Peace Corps. I couldn’t really concentrate on the lecture, so I decided to call my friend, the woman who had originally encouraged me to go to EHS. I went out into the hall to make the call on my cell phone.

She didn’t answer her home phone or her cell phone, so I called a mutual friend who has also been active in WCW, and who occasionally attends EHS meetings.

I walked into the parking lot to talk to him, so I wouldn’t disturb the Ethical Humanists, and so they wouldn’t hear my conversation. To my surprise a police car was still waiting in the parking lot. Not wishing the police to hear my conversation, and not wishing to appear “suspicious,” I walked back into the building and went into the men’s room, where I locked the door.

Then I told my friend what I had seen at the Ethical Humanist Society meeting. He suggested I try to find out more about what’s going on, specifically whether the police had been ordered to eject the photographer, or had decided to go after him first on their own.

So I ended my conversation with my friend and returned to the auditorium, where the lecture was now over and the question-and-answer session had begun. And here I noticed something unusual. At prior EHS meetings questions had always been asked just by raising your hand, whereupon the moderator would call on you and the lecturer would attempt to answer your question. But now all questions were to be submitted at the beginning of the Q&A session, in writing. Since I had missed the beginning, there was no way for me to ask a question.

After the meeting, I stuck around, helped myself to some of the free food and coffee, and talked to some of the people at EHS. From conversations with various people I learned the following:

* Sunsara’s invitation was rescinded when members of EHS found out she was a communist.
* The program committee asked Sunsara for a verbatim transcript of her speech before she would be allowed to speak. She would provide a summary but not a verbatim transcript, so they cancelled her.
* The EHS monthly newsletter was issued twice. The first time it listed Sunsara as the speaker for November 1; the second time it listed the two Peace Corps volunteers.
* The first newsletter, with the announcement of Sunsara’s speech on 11/1, went out before her speech was cancelled.
* Sunsara still got to speak on Saturday afternoon on a different topic. She just wasn’t allowed to speak on Sunday.
* A member of EHS had offered, on her own, to let Sunsara speak at her home, and have anyone interested go there. I didn’t know about this beforehand.
* The President of EHSC called the Skokie PD and asked them to be at the EHS building on Sunday morning to arrest Sunsara and her associates, if they showed up.
* EHS also arranged for the children to have their Sunday School at the home of one of the members, rather than at the EHS building. This is the reason why the children weren’t at Sunday school when I got there. The people who decide these things didn’t want the children to see anyone being arrested.
* Supposedly the President asked the WCW people not to come into the building when they entered, but they ignored him. I was with the WCW people when they entered the building, however, and I didn’t see this.
* After the WCW people entered the building, the president of EHS asked the police to throw them out.
* Supposedly, no one at EHS specifically ordered the police to go after the photographer. Apparently the police decided to do this on their own.

There were differences of opinion among the EHS people I talked to after the program, about whether Sunsara should have been allowed to speak. Some people thought it was wrong to revoke their invitation after they’d already invited her. They thought we should be open-minded enough to listen to different points of view, even if we don’t agree with them. Others agreed with the decision not to let her speak, and to summon the police in case she showed up. They also applauded the actions of the police.

LOL! Can I call ’em or what?

First- here is what I predicted yesterday in this very thread:

I’m guessing that the usual and expected law enforcement scenario unfolded that night. The cameraman was asked to leave the room and refused. Since the room was private property, he was then guilty of criminal trespass. The police then proceeded to arrest him for his crime. He resisted and was maced into submission and then taken out and stuffed into the squad car like the criminal he was, all the while sporting a shiny new set of handcuffs.

I have always had a bit of a chuckle over so-called “rights activists” who seem to be concerned about the rights of everyone except those of the property owner.

And here is what really happened according to an Eye Witness.

The man who was arrested resisted the police officer when he was asked to leave private property. He was not kicked, beaten, clubbed or tazered; he was subdued with mace, handcuffed and taken into custody. The police officer that the man resisted was however bloodied in the altercation. Calling this an act of police brutality is not only unfair to the Skokie police department but is offensive to people who have actually suffered police brutality.

Even though the path to this unfortunate event was long and complicated in the end had Sunsara decided to not disrupt our event inside our building or even if she had just left when she was asked, there would have been no mace, no arrests and no blood.

I agree with the comment that those who stage a crisis and falsely claim police brutality are offensive and insulting to those who have actually experienced police brutality.

An apology to the Police Department is in order here!

sailor says

One can be good, and is probably better, without ethics

That is an oxymoron. Logically, how would you be good without an internal and external framework in which decide what is best?
~Rowan

Perhaps what is meant is that you can be good according to any ethical framework a humanist would elucidate without consciously formulating – or adopting – one for yourself by simply letting conscience be your guide.

So while you[general You], yourself, might not conceptualize your actions in terms of good/bad or right/wrong, others might regard your deeds as generally good/right from within their ethical paradigm.

Of course, I have no idea if that’s what sailor meant. But I don’t think the statement is necessarily illogical.

Instead of doing what so many others have done when forces seek to repress critical thought and dissenting ideas which is to silently accept this repression and walk away. She, along with others, decided that this decision needed to be challenged.

So, basically, she was going to force them to host her like it or not. And who’s unethical?

I’ve got to say that I was open to listening to both sides here even though under the impression Ms. Taylor way over-reacted.

I come from poverty. I’ve struggled as a single mother and am watching my daughter do the same. I carry her and my grandson now. Naturally, I have my own socialist leanings.

However, communism is extremist and nothing I’ve seen from Ms. Taylor’s fans here leads me to any other conclusion. She was extreme and repressive (no matter what she and her fan club are claiming) toward the EHS in this mess (and I’d heard of neither her or them before here).

They may or may not have been rude at worse (even that issue is debatable and I don’t know enough to know); she was tyrannical in her actions. She threw a temper tantrum that amounted in you will host me or else. I seriously wonder if she had irresponsible parents who fed her candy to shut her up when she threw one.

I was going to call BC on his ageism but seems to be a common thread coming from the commenters supporting Ms. Taylor. So many comments about the EHS seem to be paraphrases of old farts. Unreal. With the way, you’re acting (like spoiled brats, in case I didn’t already make that clear), you’re in the least position to point fingers or throw stones.

As someone over 50, let me remind you that it is only due to us old farts, er, babyboomers, that you have the freedom to throw your temper tantrums. You owe it to the changes occurred in the ’60’s. And we owe the ability to have affected the changes we did then to those who came before us from the founding fathers to the likes of Frederick Douglass and Elizabeth Cady Stanton and so many others.

And before you take this attitude:

you poor, old pensioned-off-excuses-for-free-thinkers … scared by those young uns and their loud noises

remember it’s those old farts you owe this much freedom.

(Disclaimer: I’m at the tail end of the babyboomer spectrum. Meaning I was a kid in the ’60’s who had the good fortune to come of age in the ’70’s after the Viet Nam War ended and reap the benefits of the actions of the babyboomers at the opposite end of the spectrum from me. Thank you to them, I have always appreciated what you did for me.)

But, from what I see in this thread, the narrow-mindedness, the unacceptance of those of opposing ideas, the tendency to oppress comes from Ms. Taylor’s ardent supporters, not the EHS.

If I’m getting a wrong impression (and perhaps I’ll waste some time this weekend surfing around the internet reading up on both sides), Ms. Taylor also ought to consider the impression she makes if she wants to get her message across clearly. However, if she doesn’t care about communicating, go ahead, kick those heels and scream. But don’t be surprised if no one gives you a lollipop for it.

American communists are such attention hungry drama queens. They need to be in order to garish attention for their pathetic, failed ideology, which they cling to like a security blanket.

Technically, communism is a religion. It has prophets, Gods, churches, priests and bishops. Its adherents practice it on faith alone, and like most other religions, true communism is only for riff-raff; the upper echelons get to enjoy a lifestyle far above that of the true believer. Its prophets are people like Karl Marx, Gods people like Lenin, churches the Kremlin, priests are the Young Pioneers and Komsomol, and bishops senior party members.

In places where it receives traction, it acts exactly like any other religion, turning established order on its head, suppressing other religions and atheists(of communism, that is) and getting into everybody’s business.

Having seen every communistic experiment fail worldwide for nearly a century now, I’m frankly surprised there are any people left who still claim to be such. Apparently lessons of history are lost upon them.

For the record, I’m a member of Chicago Ethical Humanist society as well and I substantially agree with Evan Kane’s recounting of events. I also vigorously disagreed with the decision to dis-invite but once that was made had no recourse but to follow the majority. Finally, I wish the Society would drop trespassing charges but apparently an ex-ante informal agreement was made with the police that if we asked for their help we would not subsequently drop charges. Note that the Society’s charges are just one of the charges against the cameraman so this would not get him off the hook but it would help. This incident is very unfortunate on all sides. I believe that the Platform committee members who voted to rescind the invitation made a big mistake but I don’t think it’s fair to tar the Society with a dogmatic “anti-communist” label over this. We and other Ethical Societies around the country have had many socialist and communist speakers over the years!

Well I finally got my answer in this article. The society that calls itself ethical is so devoid of ethics they should be sued for false advertising. Willful damage to a third party for nothing other than revenge is the most perniciously petty of possible reasons. Congratulations to The EHSC for following through to imprison someone nonviolently doing their job. This was not someone who disagreed with you, but was merely there to document a disagreement and you were sufficiently fearful of that you would destroy his life. Only three things are needed to be a religion; a massacre, an army, and a bank. So EHSC, since you’ve caused a massacre by borrowing the state’s army to repress descent, when do you open your bank and elect a Pope?