Do I Not Deny That I Am Not a Non-Theist Denier? November 1, 2009

Do I Not Deny That I Am Not a Non-Theist Denier?

This is the most wonderful anti-atheism writing I’ve seen all day.

I think I came across a quintuple-negative in one of these sentences…

Like their denial of God, atheists are also in adamant denial that their non-belief in God is a religious endeavor. Atheism in fact is a lot of ‘denial’ because they not only deny that they deny that God exists, they deny that they believe that God does not exist. Many atheists also deny that they have any faith in their denial that God exists yet many of them will deny that statement is true because many of them also deny that they have faith in their thinking that God does not exist and also many deny that truth exists. Thus in their saying that truth does not exist, they can deny that it is true that their non-belief in God requires of them any actual thought over their motto of, “Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.” It seems as if atheists have something against both, collecting stamps and Christ Jesus.

If you think that’s amusing, check out the rest of the piece.

The author thinks our debaptism ceremonies are some sort of ritual (rather than an entertaining, random way to spend an afternoon).

He also thinks the Scarlet A is our version of the Christian cross and we worship it:

Another item of strong evidence pointing to atheism being a religion is the extravagant respect and admiration for and devotion to their symbol of the letter “A” which they hold in great esteem which they call, “Scarlet Letter.” This worship symbol they proudly and broadly display apparently as an idol. You will notice it in many places where atheists congregate as they display it proudly as though it was as significant as the cross that Christ Jesus was crucified upon.

Right…

I’m tempted to call it a Poe, but I think it’s for real. I’m not sure if that’s funny or just depressing.

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  • John F

    That has to be a Poe. Or rather, I refuse to deny that it can’t not be a Poe, thus neither implying nor denying that it isn’t not for real, unless of course it is for real. Or something.

  • Richard Wade

    Who’s on first, What’s on second, I Don’t Know’s on third…

  • Q-Squared

    …I can’t even READ that quadruple-negative sentence. :/

    Sounds like someone needs to take sentence construction classes, honestly.

    I hope it’s a really clever Poe. If not, then it’s just really depressing to see people like that out there.

  • Aj

    Poe or severely mentally handicapped. It might be a Poe because usually when religious people write about atheist internet culture they’re completely ignorant, where as this person has clearly done some reading of atheist blogs. However, the site is quite full, a lot of effort for a Poe, and it’s incredibly hard to pretend to be crazy convincingly. The thing about rituals and the scarlet ‘A’ is conscious lying that can be easily checked so either this is writing for ignorant people or it’s a joke.

    These atheists are incorrect in that once absolute truth is found that it cannot be questioned but because it is ‘absolute truth’ each time you honestly seek to discover absolute truth, you come back to the same ‘absolute truth’ because it is the ‘absolute truth.’ You see, absolute truth does not ever change over time into something different. Absolute truth is always and has always been and will always be absolute truth the same as it was, is, and will always be. Absolute truth is absolute truth for everyone. Absolute truth is always absolute truth for everyone.

    Circular reasoning, repetition, thinking that this phrase has to be explained instead of realizing that the definition of “absolute” is widely known. Yeah, it definitely acts like a Christian blogger.

  • PunkRockPoet84

    That made my brain hurt. A former English major should be able to follow just about anything…

  • Valdyr

    Warning: If you honestly pray the skeptic’s prayer, it will change your life because you will experience the presence of God and at that time you will know without doubt that God exists and that He wants to have a loving, personal relationship with you.

    Tee hee. I’m reminded of the poorly-designed Geocities sites about magic I used to come across as a youngun. All the “spells” would come with warnings that they were REAL magic, and to not try them unless you’re absolutely serious and ready for the spiritual and karmic consequences!

    Edit: That is, religious magic, not stage magic. Cursing people and making them fall in love with you and such. In case I confused anyone.

    Second edit, because I’m blabby: Did anyone catch the message at the header of the blog?

    “If there is the slightest possibility of God existing and that He has sent His only begotten Son Jesus to be your savior from your transgressions, wouldn’t it be wise to investigate it for yourself?”

    Somehow, I doubt that this person has “investigated” the thousands upon thousands of other religions that have been invented, “just in case”. He really should, though. I’m sure some of them have even worse consequences for being naughty than even Christianity.

  • Casimir

    I can’t not deny the seriousness of their post.

  • Sean Wills

    Thus in their saying that truth does not exist, they can deny that it is true that their non-belief in God requires of them any actual thought over their motto of, “Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.”

    Where are these atheists who say that truth doesn’t exist? I keep hearing about them, but I’ve never met any.

  • Valdyr

    Where are these atheists who say that truth doesn’t exist? I keep hearing about them, but I’ve never met any.

    They probably hang out with the atheists who secretly believe in God, but hate him because their cat died.

  • I would deny or rebuke his claim but I haven’t figure out what it is yet.

  • Hannah

    The most outrageous quote from the article, in my opinion:

    We have seen how atheists deny the dictionary definitions of words to suit their own denials of their denial of their denying that they have a worldview, denial that atheism is a religion, denying any belief in their denying too any faith in their belief of which too they deny in their denial of Christ Jesus.

    The person who wrote this clearly has an extremely poor grasp of the English language, grammar, syntax, and vocabulary. The writer also displays really distorted thought processes and logic and doesn’t seem to be able to understand simple ideas, such as the fact that atheists are not a uniform group but have differing views (he seems to place us all in one small box labeled “The Enemy”). My guess is that it isn’t a Poe, just – at the risk of sounding harsh – a very unintelligent person. The piece cracked me up (like this gem – “religion is not what following Christ Jesus is all about” – Christianity is not a religion but atheism is??), and better yet it shows how ridiculous and nonsensical people are who try to claim that, just because you refuse to believe their dogma, you must have some kind of dogma of your own in its place. People like this are unable to see things from another person’s perspective. They believe wholeheartedly that god exists, so therefore, anyone who does not believe in god is making a leap of faith.

    The writer’s position is completely unfair – as atheists, we want nothing to do with religion, yet people like this keep trying to force us to participate in their superstition by claiming that it is some kind of pronouncement of faith to not buy into their bullsh*t.

  • littlejohn

    Speaking of worshiping things, why do xians worship the cross – the very instrument used to execute their Main Guy? As Lenny Bruce observed, if Jesus had been executed in the 20th century, Catholic girls would be wearing little gold electric chairs on their necklaces. Do those people even think?

  • tom coward

    Very amusing use of obfuscation. I went back through 6 months of this guy’s blogs, and found a total of 2 comments (one saying what a great blog it was, and one telling the blogger he was an idiot) and no trackbacks. Whether a Poe or not, this is one big steaming pile of blogging fail!

  • Another item of strong evidence pointing to atheism being a religion is the extravagant respect and admiration for and devotion to their symbol of the letter “A” which they hold in great esteem which they call, “Scarlet Letter.”

    Isn’t that a bit like saying that Dallas Cowboy fans worship their blue star?

  • Brandon

    That first quoted paragraph confuses me. I guess I just don’t understand what I deny.

  • Laramie

    Like Samuel Clemens said, “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.” By that definition, one would be correct (from my POV) stating that I have no faith in my atheism.

  • JD

    I’ve never heard of a debaptism. I don’t understand how it can be any more entertaining way to spend time than baptism is, it sounds just as boring!

    The whole thing just looks like a hit piece to fill people’s heads with false conclusions, not one that explain what’s going on.

  • Claudia

    My favorite line:

    We have seen how atheists deny the dictionary definitions of words to suit their own denials of their denial of their denying that they have a worldview,

    I have to admit; at that point, I was pretty much sure it was a clever parody. But the post continues in a style to stupid and boring to be a true clever parody. Not Poe, just dumb.

  • WRT the “prayer”: I can honestly say that, excepting the “Lord Jesus” nonsense at the start, I could actually “pray” that prayer and remain completely genuine to myself and the words therein.

    So I did. Well he dared me to do it! What else could I do?

    Nothing happened…

    And none of this rubbish about not genuinely believing what I said – I agree 100% with everything in that “prayer”. There is nothing in it that I would disagree with or would have a problem with either publicly or in my private thoughts.

    And yet, nothing happened.

  • IvanS

    Hannah.

    Very good point about not wanting anything to do with religion. I was for a while, an Anglo-Catholic and when I finally got sick of the browbeating and jumping through mental hoops in order to justify the absurd I just walked away from it. I didn’t take up a belief in unbelief I just stopped believing ( or pretending to ) . This is what so many Christians ( and others ) can’t understand. Some of us just don’t need to believe in things, especially things that aren’t true.
    This is something that goes beyond religion, political opinions can be very similar, you find people, from all parts of the political spectrum, who think that because you don’t agree with them on some point you must have some agenda ( usually hidden and dishonest ) of your own. It is basically paranoia and is a prime cause of countless miseries in the world. Of course when politics and religion come together it gets really poisonous.

  • Eliza

    Homeschooled, maybe? That could explain a lot.

  • Blah, blah, blah. A lot said without anything actually be said. I deny that I believe in gods of any kind. If they want to call that a religion then let them. They are allowed to make fools of themselves.

    Sadly I think it is too poorly written to be a Poe.

  • “Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.”

    Not collecting stamps is a fantastic hobby. Oh the many nights I’ve stayed up not collecting stamps! I often go to conventions of people who don’t collect stamps just like me.

  • My head hurts. Double-negatives I can deal with. I took Spanish. However, quintuple-negatives just give me a migraine.

  • their symbol of the letter “A” which they hold in great esteem which they call, “Scarlet Letter.”

    Riiiiight.

    How can anyone miss that as a reference to Nathaniel Hawthorne and not to atheism. I have so far only seen people ridiculing the Out Campaign A making reference to the Scarlet Letter, not those who proudly wear it, though I can imagine it could change.

    I prefer to think of it as the Red Badge of Courage.

  • The red A was a deliberate reference to the scarlet letter. Some people criticizing the out campaign don’t get it and think calling it the scarlet letter is an insult when it isn’t.

  • Wait for me , while I meditate while listening to a blank CD.

  • SeekingDuck

    I prefer to think of it as the Red Badge of Courage.

    Wouldn’t that make for an unfortunate literary metaphor? A self-inflicted wound that earns undeserved respect from your compatriots, even though you know it’s a lie…?

  • Demetrius Of Pharos

    @Richard Wade

    Who’s on first, What’s on second, I Don’t Know’s on third…

    Thats what I’m askin! Look, you got a pitcher on this team?

    As for the other thing… *sigh* – you know, I’d be tempted to call this a poe if it weren’t for the fact that this is exactly the sort of tripe FauxNews puts out about atheism.

  • Heidi

    I think it’s depressing whether it’s a Poe or not. All Poes seem to do for me these days is remind me how stupid the actual fundies are. I don’t need to be reminded. They’re everywhere with their stupid.

  • Ron in Houston

    So, we’re all in denial?

  • Andy

    The author thinks our debaptism ceremonies are some sort of ritual (rather than an entertaining, random way to spend an afternoon).

    I would have to agree with the author. I was baptized as an infant, in a religion I have never practiced. Why would I take time to “undo” something I feel has no real significance in my life? It’s not like I’m planning my weekend and I come up with “Hey, why don’t I ‘debaptize’ myself!”.

  • muggle

    “Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.” Well, at least I got a nifty new comeback to the ridiculous Atheism is a religion claim. I will remember this. It’s amusing and that claim irritates the hell out of me. (The day Atheism is officially recognized as a religion is the day I become a Nontheist.)

    Sure this isn’t Jesusphile? He comes off that crazy to me and I’m having trouble thinking it can be that well faked.

  • Chris Jones

    It has to be real. No one could make this shit up.

  • It’s funny AND depressing. But mostly funny, in a pathetic, armchair-expert kind of way.

  • So just how many of you have faith in your belief that God does not exist?

  • valhar2000

    Well, of course Atheism is a religion! We have denial of denial of denial of the Nile, we have a “Scarlet” “Letter” so scary that it needs extra quotes, and the Deep Rifts! Don’t forget the Deep Rifts!

  • valhar2000

    ’s not like I’m planning my weekend and I come up with “Hey, why don’t I ‘debaptize’ myself!”.

    I might get debaptized. If we were in a Party and somebody get the ball rolling, I might do it for the lulz.

    Even though I was never baptized in the first place. You know, the lulz.

  • the scarlet letter is a sign that atheism is a religion and its showing that it needs a symbol where the red scarlet letter A is the atheism symbol.

  • littlejohn people who follow Christ Jesus do not worship the cross, they worship Christ Jesus. the cross is only a symbol to remember the suffering Jesus did for us.

  • @GospelToday

    the scarlet letter is a sign that atheism is a religion

    people who follow Christ Jesus do not worship the cross

    Is the symbol (cross or letter) a mark of religion or not? What is it that atheists are supposed to worship?

  • Hemant, it’s not so friendly of you to not let me answer the questions I’ve been asked just because you are afraid of it.

  • hoverFrog

    Is the symbol (cross or letter) a mark of religion or not? What is it that atheists are supposed to worship?

    Both the Christian Cross and the Atheist Scarlet Letter A are religious symbols.

    The Christian Cross reminds the people following Christ Jesus of His suffering and dying on the cross for us and to do God’s will.

    The Atheist Scarlet Letter A reminds those people who do not believe in God that they deny God and that they do their own will.

    BTW, the name “Scarlet Letter” for the “A” I did not name. I found the name at this website: http://www.cafepress.com/TheAtheistShops/6878246

  • @GospelToday is Coca Cola a religious symbol? Is Intel a religion? Is Microsoft or Glaxo? What about the seal of the President of the United States or the Democratic donkey logo?

    The Scarlet Letter A is an icon but not in a religious sense. It does remind atheists that there are other people who do not believe in gods, that we aren’t alone in the face of intrusive and ubiquitous religion. The entire OUT campaign is to encourage atheists to be more public about a lack of belief in gods. We can all benefit from dispelling silly rumours about us that only exist because of ignorance of what atheism is.

    One such thing that needs dispelling is the assumption that atheists deny the Christian god in the sense of rebelling against God. This is not the case. I do not rebel against God anymore than I rebel against Thor or Ra. I simply don’t find the idea of ANY god compelling. I find the idea of gods logically inconsistent and I give greater credence to the rational explanations for god belief than for actual gods.

    I appreciate that some people like the idea and that some even find it comforting. I’ve no interest in shattering that illusion for you. All I want is same consideration from theists. The OUT campaign and the public face of atheism only exists because many theists are not content to keep their “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” (or any other god) personal. They have to force it on others.

    Stick around and read some of the articles here. Understand that we are all singing from the same hymn sheet (so to speak) so the concepts and language might be less accessible than a Christian site might be for you. You’ll see an underlying theme after a time and it isn’t a rebellion against your particular god.

    If you like I could also point you to many other resources that explain the position of atheists in a largely theistic world.

  • A Tale of The Atheist’s Scarlet Letter ‘A’ of Atheism http://bit.ly/2Wzw6x

  • @GospelToday that is a long and wordy piece of text that completely misses the point that I outlined in my last comment. It is simply wrong but I’ve already explained why so won’t do so again.

    The assertion that atheism is a religion is simply not true. My Oxford English Dictionary defines religion as follows:
    • noun 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship. 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.
    — ORIGIN originally in the sense life under monastic vows: from Latin religio ‘obligation, reverence’.

    What is it that we atheists are supposed to revere? You cannot even put atheism in the same category as a philosophy or political ideal that attracts a following. It is simply too broad a term to work in that way.

    I have gone into more detail on my own blog in an effort to explain this. Feel free to read and comment there if you like. Is the site linked to your name your own blog or one that you refer to?

  • The Richard Dawkins Delusion (Part 1) http://bit.ly/925XGC

  • hoverFrog, everyone has a worldview from which they view and understand the world. Your worldview has you see evidence in one way and my worldview may have me seeing the exact same evidence in another way.

    You stated in my blog that, “A religion doesn’t need any supernatural power to be a religion.” and you also stated that you agree to that fact when you said, “I agree.” You also gave an example of this with Buddhism; “Buddhism has no inherent supernatural assumption but it is undeniably a religion.” This I agree with you that a religion does not need any supernatural power to be a religion however I disagree with you that Buddhism has no inherent supernatural assumption.

    The Mahayana sutras which is a very broad genre of Buddhist scriptures hold that they are original teachings of the Buddha and has a supernatural aspect to it. Followers of Mahayana teachings hold that the teachings were given to, and preserved by, beings in other realms (either supernatural beings or Buddhas and Bodhisattvas on other planes of being). In general however, Buddhism is comparatively however has no inherent supernatural assumptions. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana_Sutras)

    Note that if I wrote that Atheism as you put it in your comment on my blog, “is mainly based on the myth of Darwinian Evolution” I did a poor sentence structure as this is not what the religion of Atheism is mainly based on. The religion of Atheism is mainly based on the presupposition that God does not exist and Darwinian Evolution is the myth held to that many atheists hold without evidence as “proof” to say that God does not exist.

    You make a common mistake that many atheists make in that you confuse religion with the existence of God. The two are mutually exclusive. God’s existence or not is not dependent upon any religion.

    I agree with you that Evolution is unrelated to the religion of Atheism. It is the myth of Darwinian Evolution that atheists hold to as evidence to say that Christian claims are incorrect. Evolution is something we observe over time and can validate and is fact. Darwinian Evolution however is merely myth which has never been observed nor validated and is a myth that the religion of Atheism uses as fact without evidence of it occurring. Atheists tend to not properly state the difference between evolution which is observable and Darwinian Evolution which has never been observed. This lack of distinction is used to falsely promote evidence of observable evolution as that of Darwinian Evolution when in fact the two are mutually exclusive.

    You stated on your blog, “Just for the record: atheism is a lack of belief in gods. That’s it.” That definition shows that you have a firm belief in something for which there is no proof (against God’s existence) and complete trust that you are correct to have a lack of belief in God. Your comment in my blog, “I have no faith in gods” along with the statement you made on your blog quoted above grouped with the way you believe and defend your position with such a strong conviction shows the faith you have in the religion of Atheism.

    The Atheism system of beliefs you hold to with such ardor and faith displays as a personal set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices that you have demonstrated in my blog, on your blog and others which proves you are following a religion; specifically, the religion of Atheism. The fact that you are defending Atheism so greatly and have taken such a scrupulously and conscientiously faithful stance in defense of Atheism shows that you are a religious follower of the religion of Atheism. In fact, the continuing way you defend the religion of Atheism is expressing great devotion and piety to it which shows that you are a devout follower of the religion of Atheism.

    The use of the words religion, religious, faith, and devout I have used all comes from proper us of and application for each of these words as they are defined on the http://www.merriam-webster.com website. Whether or not you agree or disagree with my application of these words is up to you. It all goes back to the worldview you have and the worldview I have that allows us to view the evidence at hand. A worldview is a set of beliefs that underline and shape all human thought and action. The question is not whether you have a worldview or not, but whether the worldview you are living by is a good one.

  • @GospelToday, there is no “religion of atheism” as has been repeatedly explained. As you refuse to accept my detailed explanations and continue to twist my comments to fit your own assumptions I don’t think there is any reason for me to continue to converse with you.

  • hoverFrog, please answer these questions for me so that I don’t have to make assumptions about them:

    1: Where did mankind come from? (Origin)

    2: How do you separate good from bad? (Morality)

    3: What is your life’s meaning? (Purpose)

    4: What is going to happen to you after you die? (Destiny)

  • I wonder how many people, who read Richard Dawkins’ book, The God Delusion, caught the point that (on page 74 in the paperback version) Richard Dawkins wrote that he is only making an “assumption” about his believe of God’s nonexistence.

    The Richard Dawkins Delusion (Part 2) – The god Richard Dawkins http://bit.ly/4nFJ0L

  • Revyloution

    Hoverfrog has had amazing patience with you. By his leave, Ill give your questions some good answers.

    1. Homo Sapiens most likely diverged from Homo Erectus between 200k and 100k years ago.

    2. Good from bad is determined by the rules of your society. For example, we in the US consider it always bad when someone kills their daughter. Now take the early Christians and Jews. They thought Jephtah was being a good moral person when he put a knife into his daughter and burned her corpse to sacrifice her to Yahweh. Morality is not absolute. A behavior one group calls evil, another will consider perfectly moral.

    3. My life’s meaning is to learn as much as possible, and to pass as much of that on to the next generation. Im compulsively autodidactic. Everyones purpose will be different. Purpose is a human created concept, so it is what you make it.

    4. What do great composers do when they die? They Decompose! Who I am requires brain function. A skilled brain surgeon could change who I ‘am’ by removing parts of my brain. Once the brain is no longer working, I will no longer exist.

    To your second post:

    Yes, most people know that Dawkns admits to not having definitive proof for the non existence of any god. And thats ANY god, not just yours. He assumes it is just as likely the great Ju Ju is real, or Wotan, or Thor, or Zeus, et al. Don’t try to pretend that he is giving Yahweh any special status.

  • Thanks Revyloution. Good answers.

    1: Where did mankind come from? (Origin)
    Evolution provides an excellent answer to this question. It is well supported with strong evidence from a number of sources. In fact the origin of all species is explained by evolution. The origin of life isn’t though. That is a different question.

    2: How do you separate good from bad? (Morality)
    How do you? Do you take moral advice from others to determine what is best? Do you read the works of philosophers and moral commenters, psychologists and experts in the human mind? Do you examine your own behaviour and make assessments as to the impact that it has on others?

    Ethical behaviour is an iterative process. We aren’t gifted with insight into what is right and wrong when we are born. We learn how to behave and we learn what is considered to be right and wrong. We do have some instinctive behaviours that help us to learn these things that have become ingrained in our human psychology. We are curious and pattern seeking animals and that lets us try things out and explore and see the implications of our actions.

    3: What is your life’s meaning? (Purpose)
    Mine? I’m not in the mood to share my life’s plans with strangers on the Internet. Not all in one go. One thing is that I am a father so part of my life’s purpose is to provide for my children. Materially, morally, intellectually. In all ways I try to be a good father because I want them to grow up and live joyful lives that are as fulfilled as mine.

    This is an odd question really. Don’t you believe that you have a purpose in life? Haven’t you given your life a purpose, don’t you value your own contribution? If you lost faith in your god would your life be devoid of meaning? If so then I find that sad and suggest you take some time to assess your own life.

    4: What is going to happen to you after you die? (Destiny)
    Nothing. There won’t be a ‘me’ after I die. I’m going to be buried in an unmarked grave in woodland not far from my parents, my partner’s parents and my partner when they have all shuffled off this mortal coil. There my remains will rot and be devoured by organisms ideally suited to the task. Unless you choose to be cremated similar organisms will devour you too after your death. Do you know how I know this? Evidence.

    I wonder why people feel the need to invent gods to grant them the illusion that life extends beyond our normal span of years. Isn’t it enough? How much of your life is wasted in prayer and supplication to your imaginery friend when you could be living and making the most of your own existence. If by some quirk of nature you find yourself existing after your brain is mush then treat that as a bonus, not as a replacement for the life that you know you have now.

    On to your second point. Revyloution has answered well but I’d add that Dawkins is a good scientist. As such he is aware that he makes assumptions and has biases. He is honest enough to tell others what they are and uses methods in his research to eliminate them as far as possible. That is what the scientific method is good at.

  • On the “Is atheism a religion?” question, I have the following comment. One thing all religions have in common is the human desire to “get something for nothing” (or getting an infinitely larger reward for a finite smaller sacrifice). Its the idea that by purposefully adopting certain beliefs or engaging in certain activities (or not engaging in certain activities) that you expect an infinitely large payout in the future (like eternal life in heaven after you die). The other component is that this payout (or reward) comes from “outside” our world… It is a gift from a supernatural god.

    The closest thing atheism has to this is that by sacrificing to get an education (or learn a trade), one can have a better job in the future. The difference is that the reward comes from this world and is a direct consequence of the activities of the person getting the reward. (Like having a successful business or doing well on a job). Atheism has no expectation of any reward from beyond. No “gifts” from a supernatural god. So therefore, atheism (or science or naturalism) does not meet this criteria of being a religion.

    The whole may be greater than the sum of the parts, but not infinitely greater.
    There is no evidence that the notion of life after death is anything other than just wishful thinking.

  • Jeff, your definition of religion is a self-made one and of course the way you defined religion Atheism you feel it does not meet your criteria of being a religion. You however are not thinking about Atheism as a whole in that per your assumption that God does not exist, “you get something for nothing” (you get an infinitely larger reward for a finite smaller sacrifice) your larger reward is doing what you want when you want without answering to God for your actions where your sacrifice today is small; only a single assumption that God does not exist. It is the idea that you have in your adoption of the beliefs you have based on your assumption that God does not exist that you engage in certain activities (or not engage in certain activities) that you expect an infinitely large payout today (not thinking about life in heaven as something obtainable because of your assumption that God does not exist). The other component is that your payout (or reward) comes today from “inside” our world… coming as a gift from having an assumption that God does not exist.

    So in looking at it a bit differently than you did, Atheism does fit within your definition of being a religion. Using dictionary definitions of religion, Atheism fits well within the definition of religion too.

    You as most other atheists by choice deny the fact that you are a religious sect of Atheism just as you deny God’s existence.

    Religion
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion
    2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
    3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
    4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

    Faith
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith
    3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

    You Jeff have a personal set of beliefs and practices which you scrupulously conform to as a cause to which you hold a principle system of beliefs believed with especially with strong convictions.

  • Did any of you catch the fact (on page 77 in the paperback version of “The God Delusion”) that Richard Dawkins said that God is not disprovable?

    Here then he goes on to delude his prey that it is irrelevant that one cannot disprove God’s existence and says that his seven graduated levels of milestone human judgments about the existence of God is the right way to disprove God.
    The very table that Richard Dawkins put together to disprove God through his “spectrum of probabilities” he says is the best way to disprove God whom he said just before is not disprovable. Well, duh! Leave it to Richard Dawkins to trick his prey into thinking that he can do the impossible and disprove something that is by his own words said that cannot be disproved.

    Leave it to Richard Dawkins to proclaim that he can do such miracle as to disprove God’s existence because he holds supreme power over his prey since he is going to use something of his own design to disprove something that is not disprovable so to prove to his prey his powerful powers and that his assumption is the truth and that he is right and his word is truth, as always forever and ever it will be.

    The Richard Dawkins Delusion (Part 2) – The god Richard Dawkins http://bit.ly/4nFJ0L

  • Let me restate without your emotional rants so that I can confirm your answers:

    1: Where did mankind come from? (Origin)
    Darwinian Evolution for mankind
    No answer for origin of life as it is still in question.

    2: How do you separate good from bad? (Morality)
    Popular majority after and exploring and seeing the implications of our actions.

    3: What is your life’s meaning? (Purpose)
    No set purpose.
    Be a good parent.
    Learn more.
    Teach next generation.

    4: What is going to happen to you after you die? (Destiny)
    Totally cease to exist (maybe).

    Please correct me if I’m wrong in restating your answers.

  • Revyloution

    Correct you if you’re wrong? I’d almost be tempted to say you never read the responses!

    You even went so far as to re-ask your question I answered

    Did any of you catch the fact (on page 77 in the paperback version of “The God Delusion”) that Richard Dawkins said that God is not disprovable?

    where I responded

    Yes, most people know that Dawkns admits to not having definitive proof for the non existence of any god. And thats ANY god, not just yours. He assumes it is just as likely the great Ju Ju is real, or Wotan, or Thor, or Zeus, et al. Don’t try to pretend that he is giving Yahweh any special status.

    I don’t think you have bothered to read a fraction of what is written, and failed to understand any of what you read.

    Try again to paraphrase what we’ve said.

  • Revyloution, let me note the differences between my first question about Dawkins and the second question I had about.

    The first question is asking if you knew that Dawkins is merely making an “assumption” about God’s existence where the second question is asking if you knew that Dawkins says that he can disprove God’s existence.

    Two very different questions but they did come from the same page of his deluded book.

  • Restated without your personal emotional rants to confirm your answers:

    1: Where did mankind come from? (Origin)
    Darwinian Evolution for mankind
    No answer for origin of life as it is still in question.

    2: How do you separate good from bad? (Morality)
    Popular majority after and exploring and seeing the implications of our actions.

    3: What is your life’s meaning? (Purpose)
    No set purpose.
    Be a good parent.
    Learn more.
    Teach next generation.

    4: What is going to happen to you after you die? (Destiny)
    Totally cease to exist (maybe).

    Please correct me if I’m wrong in restating your answers. Please do so without any personal rants if you can.

  • Revyloution

    @Gospeltoday
    Dawkins says he can disprove Yahweh. It’s easily done using the Bible, and archeology. You can fairly easily debunk Christianity without even using secular sources. Just use Catholics debunking of Protestantism, Protestant debunking of Jehovas Witnesses, JW’s debunking of Mormonism, Mormons debunking of Catholicism, and by the time you use all their arguments against each other, there is nothing left of Christianity. I cant speak for Dawkins, but I believe that was his point.
    As for disproving any/all forms of God/Gods, that falls under the basics of philosophy and logic. You can’t prove a negative. All we can deal with are specific claims.
    These are separate issues, I don’t understand why you keep trying to combine them.

    Ill try to help you with your emotional rant against our logical responses to your questions.

    1. You asked where Mankind came from. Not life. Why do you include that in your paraphrase? If you want to talk about abiogenesis, its an entirely separate topic. Either rephrase your question or drop the line ‘No answer for origin of life as it is still in question.’

    2. You almost have it here. I doubt its possible to describe how morality changes in just one sentence.

    3. There is a set purpose, the sentence ‘No set purpose’ is false. The purpose is set by the person who wants the purpose. The other 3 examples are just what those individuals want. Purpose is an individual choice.

    4. Drop the (maybe) No one here thinks maybe. Our consciousness ceases to exist at death.

  • Thank you Revyloution for the assistance with the responses to my questions…

    Let me clarify a bit more so to make sure I understand.

    1: Where did mankind (life) come from? (Origin)
    Abiogenesis for origin of life.
    Darwinian Evolution for mankind.

    2: How do you separate good from bad? (Morality)
    Popular majority after and exploring and seeing the implications of our actions; cannot really be described in one sentence.

    3: What is your life’s meaning? (Purpose)
    No set purpose for the whole but is set by the person who wants purpose; individual choice.

    4: What is going to happen to you after you die? (Destiny)
    Totally cease to exist.
    (note that “maybe” was added per hoverFrog’s statement “If by some quirk of nature you find yourself existing after your brain is mush then treat that as a bonus…”)

    Please correct me if I’m wrong in restating your answers.

  • @GospelToday wrote

    Restated without your personal emotional rants to confirm your answers:

    I’m not sure what you are reading here GT but I’m not seeing any rants or emotional outbursts at all. Revyloution and I have provided answers and clarified them even though they are quite clear to begin with.

    1: Where did mankind (life) come from? (Origin)
    These are two different questions.

    Where does mankind come from? The answer can be found in an understanding of evolution. It is certainly the case that the human species evolved from ape like creatures similar to us and they evolved from earlier forms of animal life.

    Where does life come from? I read recently a very interesting article about the origin of life as a chemical process. If you can pick up Simon Singh’s The Sound of Christmas essay then it explains beautifully the basic idea. The most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and helium that make up 74% and 24% of all the atoms in the universe. Nearly all the other elements are made in collapsing stars, the iron in our blood, the calcium in our bones, the oxygen in our lungs, all are the nuclear waste of dead suns. We are literally made of this “star stuff”. How it formed into life is a mystery but there are some good hypotheses that are supported by evidence.

    Here is a link to a clip on Panspermia.

    Another for chemical life in an early earth

    One for Abiogenesis by Dr. Jack Szostak

    Honestly though just use google, you’ll find about 39 million hits to The Origin of Life.

    2: How do you separate good from bad? (Morality)
    As you agree that it cannot rally be described in one sentence here is a link to a site that describes the human origin of morality in more detail. Albert Schweitzer did say this though: “Reverence for life affords me my fundamental principle of morality, namely that good consists in maintaining, assisting, and enhancing life, and that to destroy, to harm, or to hinder life is evil” and Immanuel Kant wrote “Morality is not really the doctrine of how to make ourselves happy but of how we are to be worthy of happiness”

    3: What is your life’s meaning? (Purpose)
    I recommend reading some philosophy. There are literally dozens of answers on how to arrive at meaning in life. Check out Wikipedia for some basic ideas.

    Albert Schweitzer also said “I don’t know what your destiny will be, but one thing I do know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who have sought and found how to serve.”

    4: What is going to happen to you after you die? (Destiny)
    Totally cease to exist. I added “maybe” because I think that doubt is good and we shouldn’t ever cut ourselves off from the possibility that we might be wrong. For what it is worth I know that we cease to exist when we die and have explained the evidence to support this knowledge. I’m open to the possibility of there being something I’ve missed if you have the evidence to support your idea. I don’t think that you have any though.

  • @Gospeltoday,

    Concerning your applying my words to atheism, I don’t think it works. For example, I don’t personally believe in the “flying spaghetti monster” (FSM). Technically, I’m an aFSMist. Perhaps you are too. I would not consider my lack of belief in a FSM a religion. I merely consider all religions made-up (just like FSM). Some are just more popular and have better stories than others.

  • Revyloution

    Jeff said
    “Some are just more popular and have better stories than others.”

    Some are just popular, others have better stories.
    FTFY

    The Greek religions had the best stories, even though they were never that popular (in the world wide sense)

  • The Atheist worldview is in a great crisis because it has no foundational support for what it says it believes in. The Atheist worldview holds as truth that it is based on science, logic, and reason. In fact, the Atheist worldview has no basis to prove that it is based on science, logic, and reason without actually giving evidence that the Biblical worldview is true because only the Biblical worldview by its own definition is founded on science, logic and reason as set forth within the Holy Bible. Both the Atheist worldview and the Biblical worldview cannot both be true because that would be a contradiction breaking the law of non-contradiction therefore, the Atheist worldview is false and the Biblical worldview is true.

    Beyond Doubt – Christianity is True – Atheism is False http://bit.ly/5vtvvF