Letter to a Christian Grandma

Josh has made a wonderful case for his nonbelief, and I appreciate how he tries to show his grandmother that nonbelievers have rational grounds for their ideas. His letter was firm but tactful, and his arguments were well-thought out.

However, I find it frustrating that we nonbelievers frequently have to justify our stance to Christians. Why do we constantly have to defend ourselves? Why can’t Christians let us live our lives? I’m sure that Josh doesn’t go around asking Christians to justify their belief system, so why should he have to justify his?

Why can’t Christians let us live our lives?

HELL.

As a Christian I must say that both of them have done a commendable job at stating their beliefs and communicating to each other.

I can tell by Josh’s final words that he understands the love that his grandmother is showing him by writing such a long letter to him on Salvation, and I hope that she can see that he has seriously weighed the facts through his own response.

I wish them the best of luck! Hope that the discussion continues, and keep us updated, Hemant!

and tried to scare me back into the fold by talking about how powerful Satan is.

Man, Christians are always telling me how powerful this Satan guy is! It seems like he can do pretty much whatever he wants, and God is powerless to do anything but Biblically threaten to throw him into some lake of fire… which, if Christians are to be believed, is where he already lives anyway.

Plus I hear a lot of titillating rumors about magic spells and kinky-sex orgies! Our pastor never gave us anything like that. Where can I sign up for this Satan dude’s newsletter? Does he have a Facebook group?

I agree that the letter was much too technical and the language in which he presented his arguments was too complex, unless his grandmother is actually a highly educated woman with a large vocabulary.
However, I really liked the frank and respectful tone he took at the beginning of the letter.
And the reference to a “rising flood” of evidence struck me as funny. There’s something about a great flood in the Bible, isn’t there?

The core of it, though, becomes too clinical, and too deeply couched in the language of academic discourse and formal debate.

I agree that the letter was much too technical and the language in which he presented his arguments was too complex, unless his grandmother is actually a highly educated woman with a large vocabulary.

Page 7, footnote 31 indicates she has a Master’s in Biology. That make my brain asplode.

the letter was much too technical and the language in which he presented his arguments was too complex, unless his grandmother is actually a highly educated woman with a large vocabulary.

I’m wondering if Josh has any background in philosophy or some sort of religious studies – I am an avid devourer of atheist literature and this is more technical and better stated than many, many tracts I’ve read.

I think it’s completely pointless. A grandmother writes a deeply personal, handwritten, impassioned plea to her adult grandchild to return to the faith, and the atheist grandchild responds with an essay that reads like an article from a pier-reviewed journal complete with footnots. To the point that on two pages the footnotes comprise of over half the page.

Even I’m inclined to respond tl;dr.

To some believers, deeply fundamentalist believers anyway, it’s more about perception than cold hard facts. How do you think they’re going to perceive that? It’s exactly what they’d expect of us. It’s cliche to the point of stereotype. You can’t just throw a bunch of facts at them, and expect them to read all the way through.

All of my grandparents are deceased, so I can’t imagine having to face this situation. And I’d probably respond differently today than I would have back then. But I wouldn’t reply to a grandparent the way I’d reply to one of my professors. It’s a completely different relationship dynamic.

I’d reply in a more personal, “heart to heart” kind of way. I’d find a way to let them know that I’m an adult now, and I need to find my own way, or something like that. Live and let live, kind of sappy stuff. Something they’d understand, even if they don’t necessarily accept it.

Scrap the whole letter. Simply ignore it.

I have been in the exact same situation. Look, life is short. Your grandma is going to die soon, probably within 5-10 years.

Who are you trying to convince with this ridiculous letter. Footnotes? Come on.

You want to make your grandma happy? Ask her about her life, about what her grandma was like, about her first boyfriend.

Thank me later.

…awaiting epic Mama reponse…

“I’ll pray for you”

This is to Josh. I’m not on Reddit, but hopefully he will come by here and read everyones thoughts.

I hope she thoughtfully responds to your ridiculously well thought out letter. I say “ridiculously well” for I am imagining responding to my own southern baptist grandmother if she had learned of my atheism before her passing, and how she wouldn’t have been so learned in the first place to write such a letter as your grandmother. (Not to demean my g-mother. It’s just a fact.) That being said, having a southern baptist grandmother of my own, I’m going to assume you know her well enough to know that you haven’t gone overboard with the extensivity of your letter (graphs, charts, latin naming of ants and all) and believe that it’s concepts are not “over the head” of said type of person.

All in all your ideas are laid out beautifully. There is only one thing that bothered be. Notice this has nothing to do necessarily with whether or not I feel that its change would have any effect on your letter’s impact, it is just something that I feel you failed to address, yet I feel is a major point that plagues the discord between believers and non-believers.

She said:

“Your Mom and Dad have shared with Paa and me that you are standing at a crossroad of your life – weighing one belief system against another and choosing with which to align your present and your future.”

Many people, including atheists, might argue that atheism, despite the fact that its definition is merely a “lack of belief”, is in fact a belief system of its own. While this is a point that could be argued separately, I’ll just make my point by saying that many atheists carry various beliefs, but atheism carries none. I feel as though a believers failure to realize this becomes a roadblock for their path to at least understanding where atheists are coming from, which could in turn open the typical theists mind to considering rational debate as relevant and perhaps even allowing skepticism in. Evidence to the roadblock I speak of is your grandmother’s bringing up of the idea of evolution (especially not distinguishing it from abiogenesis or cosmogenesis). While we would be hardpressed to find an atheist that does not accept evolution, I feel the fact that an example such as this that is always categorized under the label that is atheism as “part of ones beliefs” is where believers often remain short sighted in their attempts to rationalize a way of seeing the world without God. You do reveal some of your opinions on subjects through response to her assumptions that you have certain “beliefs” by mere fact that you are a member of a group that she has placed you in, however it could have been made more clear that your empiricism and acceptance of widely known scientific theory is not necessarily linked to your non-belief in God. In other words, the fact that you side with many of the same theories that believers often disagree with does not automatically place those “beliefs” into a category that is only meant to be in direct contrast with theistic belief (although admittedly it often is).

In my opinion, I feel as though you did not address this problem, and possibly could have made a problem I have addressed worse, with your conclusion:

“I have put my beliefs on the table, subject to a fair look. […] More importantly, my beliefs remain on the table, always subject to criticism and re-evaluation. […] Let’s put our beliefs on the table. […] …to face the probability that some of my beliefs were invalid.

I won’t presume to know whether or not you don’t believe in god, or that you believe there is no god. Perhaps you don’t think there is a difference. Either way, I feel as though I would have worded the conclusion in a way that made your stance on belief, or lack thereof, more clear. Actually, I would have perhaps addressed this topic at the beginning, as she did just the same in the quote of hers I included above which was in her first paragraph.

Excellent work though! I’m looking forward to her response.

My handwriting sucks, and I had the luxury of being able to drive across town to visit my grandparents. So I probably wouldn’t have needed a letter. But that sounds like a reasonable compromise.

To be honest, I’m at work. so I haven’t had a chance to do more than skim the original letter, and can’t offer any specific suggestions.

Just keep in mind that text is a limiting medium. You may think you’re writing in a loving, understanding, compassionate tone, but that’s not necessarily how the reader will read it. Perhaps consider framing your choice in your beliefs as a culmination of your personal journey, or something like that.

Hmm.. Beelzebub makes a good point. I would agree with it except for two reasons:

1. If she had just written a page or two, I could easily see myself chuking the idea of a lengthy response out the window in order to avoid her thinking her grandson is completely lost and hellbound, but she wrote 33 pages!

2. It’s already written. What the hell, just give it to her. See what happens!

I’m now considering enclosing a brief, one-page handwritten letter with my longer letter that basically thanks her for her thoughtful letter, her concern, and that, while I don’t share her beliefs I still love her and see no need for our relationship to change.

Excellent idea.

Since Josh (the letter’s author and grandson of Mama Murphy) is reading this blog I’d like to ask him:

What will your grandmother think if/when she finds out that her letter to you is being read by so many people? Will she mind – or understand?

**

I think your comment (above) about including a hand written note is a good one btw…

I’ve just finished mama’s letter – and it appears you left the more ‘personal’ stuff out (the last 15 or so pages). I guess that’ll keep mama murphy from freaking out too much! 😉

While I think the response letter is unusual, I think a 33 page letter is unusual as well.

I have no doubt that the grandmother will have no trouble following the letter.

I hope we find out how this all turns out!

I, too, would like a follow-up post.

What is the point of the reply letter? Really, what is the point?

If you think this letter will change your grandmother’s mind about you, well, you are correct. But it probably won’t be for the positive.

If you are trying to win some argument, well, you already lost. Anytime you have to say “but I still love you” – you lose.

My guess is that the real motivation is to get some respect, love and acceptance. Because that is what everyone wants, especially from a person you call Mama.

If you want her respect then volunteer at a animal shelter and excel in your profession. If you want her love then visit her, write her birthday cards and send her pictures of your family. If you want her acceptance then accept her for who she is and find a common bond. But for fucks sake, don’t send that letter. And you better hope she never finds this online.

Thank me later.

Unfortunately it would not be possible for him to exchange his grandmother for mine, who has been dead for half a century. She like him thought religion was total nonsense, and demanded that there be no ritualistic nonsense at her funeral. One daughter was Catholic, the rest indifferent. The indifferent let the Catholics have their rituals, I cannot fault their reasoning. Their mother was dead, she had made her wishes and died in that knowledge. Nothing that happened after would affect her. The Catholic daughter really believed her mother would go to hell if not last-rited. So if it gave that daughter comfort let her do it.

The best part of all of this, IMO, is the open atmosphere of sharing and love. She makes it absolutely clear that, while she thinks you’re wrong (and maybe going to hell for it), she loves you. And the real rarity: she doesn’t attempt to use guilt, even covertly, as a means to bring you back into the fold.

She doesn’t write about how you’re being “hurtful” or “breaking her heart” or any of the guilt-trips that many religious parents and grandparents attempt to spring on their atheist children and grandchildren. In her letter, she treated you as a mature, adult colleague – not as a whiny kid who’s rebelling or hurting her.

I love your answering letter, and I think that including a hand-written letter as a sort of introduction to it would solidify it as a perfect response.

Anyone who thinks he needs to water down his letter or simply respond as a “heart to heart” needs to rethink this. Josh has no obligation to bend or even be kind when his views questioned by someone with an uninformed opinion, regardless of who it is that’s questioning him.

I still love my grandma, but I lost all respect and have no need to talk to her after she said she couldn’t accept my brothers sexuality. Just because it’s your grandma doesn’t mean you have to tolerate anything.

I LOVED this reply letter so much (maybe it’s my background in Psychology?), even despite its journal-esque setup. It was incredibly well-reasoned, well-researched, and easy to read, and it also put into words some of my own thoughts and feelings that I’ve always had trouble explaining clearly to theists. I’m also excited to check out some of the books you mentioned in your footnotes!

However, I’ve got a couple of minute edits for you:

1) Page 14, footnote 52, 4th line down–you need a space between “little” and “phenomenon.”

2) Unless you live in Great Britain, periods and commas at the end of quotations always go inside quotation marks, not after them. This rule applies even if the quotation is taken from the middle of its original sentence. Thus, for example, the end of the quotation on page 3, footnote 7, line 6 should read, “‘before the time of Adam.'” If the quotation ends with a question mark, it is not necessary to follow with a period, such as on page 4, footnote 17. It’s customary to let the question mark end the sentence.

I realize that you’re not actually submitting this letter to a journal (though it’s definitely worth being published!), but I can’t help being a grammar Nazi. It’s in my blood.

Again, amazing work. I think that if more people questioned their faith like you did, the world would be a much better place, even if they eventually decided they still believed in God. At least then they would know why.

If you end up talking to your grandma at length about her faith, I’d love to know how she was able to get her Masters in Biology without compromising her beliefs.

I think it’s an excellent reply, well constructed and considered and while some have worried that the tone and vocabulary might make it incomprehensible to grandma, i think it shows a real respect to treat her as an intellectual equal. I think there is a real danger of atheists and free-thinkers appearing to condesent to those of belief, however ridiculous their beliefs are. We must, with dilligence and thoughtfulness, point out their errors of fact and thought irrespective of how they respond.

Really enjoyed reading it Josh. Congrats. The only thing I would change is the footnotes. It’s not an academic paper and I don’t think you need to go into so much detail but if you want to allow your grandmother to have access to your sources, maybe you could put them at the end, I think it would read better that way.

Gareth

I really liked your letter Josh, good job. I don’t know your grandma but I’ve yet to meet any Christian who is willing to take the take the time to understand why I follow another path than they do. It doesn’t seem to matter how thoughtfully I lay out the argument, at the end of the day they still think some catalyst or tragedy occurred that made me “lose my faith” (as if it was waiting to be returned). One other thing I would be curious about is do you think your grandma would have responded this way 20 – 30 years ago? Is she realizing her own mortality and reacting from that? It seems the closer Christians get to death, the more they scramble to get everyone on the “Peace Train.” Please do keep us posted as to her response.

I just happened on this website and blogs and found the letters fascinating, if exhausting. Excellent job of the bloggers on critiquing the effort and being helpful. It’s so nice to see constructive blogging as opposed to the nonsense and venom that comes forth if there is any political agenda.

I vote for the long letter and don’t see that a shorter version is useful. The grandmother seems to want to pull out all the stops, and so Josh has appropriately replied to most of them. It is a worthy effort even if not completely read or appreciated by the main antagonist, as so many others have read it and enjoyed it.

The letter is technical and examining the references is going to be too much work to expect it to be done. But using references reinforces the effort even if only a single one is checked for veracity.

I was raised a catholic and my older family members are irrationally religious. However my own and succeeding generations have diverged markedly from this idiom, and we understand the value of logic and the unsettlingness of contradiction.

I was most impressed with Josh’s closing words about how unimportant our (human) situation really is (or appears to be). This has been my precise stand for years.

If there is a God as christians seem to have it, (IT, or place desired gender here) must be external to the physical universe and thus outside time and universal laws as we understand them. Hence this God is not accessible by our science, and questions are moot. But belief in the inaccessible is preferable to belief in the impossible or the contradicted. Thus there is nothing useful in the bible about God, though it has quite a few compelling human interest stories.

Glenn (a scientist)

In many professional offices, every man wears a tie. What’s that about? It’s completely unnecessary, non-functional. The meaning behind it is… by doing this silly unnecessary thing, dressing this way, everyone is confirming that they’re “on the same team.” The tie represents this, precisely because there’s no rational reason for it.

It’s the same with family dynamics. It’s not as if we really care what the others believe. Deep down, we all know that life’s a mystery, and our beliefs are guesses. But by outwardly conforming or professing membership in a belief-system with no rational basis… we’re symbolicly showing that we’re in this together.

Not that I do this with my own family. I’m just sayin’.

Point is that Josh clearly re-affirms his connection to Grandma. It’s quite possible that this is far more important than anything else.

One more point that I think is very important, and perhaps even connected to the above:

Stipulate that it’s true that if I profess belief in Jesus, I’ll spend an eternity in heaven, while billions of other people suffer in hell. This is not a good result. This is the furthest thing from “Good News.”

If this is the truth, then it’s much much better that I go to hell. That way, at least I’ll have some chance to help all those suffering beings.

I mean, she’s a grandmother, ferchristsake. Josh: is it possible, on some level, that she’d understand this?

Heard anything yet?