The Bad Science Behind Having a Baby

I had my son 2 months ago and like the previous poster said, ended up smack dab in the middle of the mommy wars. I belong to a moms message board community where 95% of the moms are stay at home christian moms who are pro natural childbirth, anti vaccination, anti circumcision and pretty much anti everything else. They are very hard on working mothers because they say that we value money more than our children and that the purpose of being a woman is to take care of our children and our husbands because that’s basically the only thing we were put on this earth for. I had one mother call me selfish for working outside the home, another mother call me a child abuser for getting my son circumcised and another mother say that I “circumvented the natural order” by having my son in a hospital using an epidural and pitocin. They are quite militant about these things as well as strange things, like that it is wrong to find out the gender because “it is as if you are questioning god”. When they find out that I’m an atheist I get the feeling that they want to contact child protective services immediately.

I thought that politics and religion were the two main divisions in society, until I got pregnant and went on the internet to learn that you always either belong to one “faction” or another with no in between.

This is a really sticky subject for any skeptic. The thing is that there are hospitals with 50% and higher c-section rates, doctors who induce at the slightest provocation, doctors who do episiotomies on practically every woman, and doctors who overuse pitocin. These things exist, and they are not science and evidence-based.

However, many midwives and homebirthers are so entrenched in woo that it’s hard to even talk about what might be wrong with medical maternity care because you’ll get associated with the “crunchy” people.

I don’t plan on having kids for a few years, but I bet we’ll still be having these mommy wars then. 🙁

The writer equates hospital birth with science and home/natural birth with superstitious woo, and that’s inappropriate. Much research and good science has gone into showing that birth should be treated as a natural phenomenon as much as a medical procedure, as long as (as in every situation) everyone involved is educated and responsible.

Let women give birth the way they want to. Taking drugs (among other things) isn’t science, and it isn’t necessary, nor should women who prefer it be thought of as “less than” by anyone. I’m happy for him that the kid is here, big Congratulations!

As to what ‘rumors’ are true, I would just say that there is a serious problem with the lack of availability of midwives in this country and the lack of alternatives to hospital births FOR LOW RISK PREGNANCIES. This isn’t an aesthetic issue, it’s a practical consideration. Not only do studies show that the rates of complications are as low or lower than for hospital births, it’s part of the problem of overburdening of OBGYNs in the US. In Canada and the UK, for instance, many if not most low risk births take place in childbirth centers affiliated with hospitals in case of complications, meaning that there is more time and attention for each expectant mother and, for instance, women are much less likely to be stuck with the standard lying on the back, legs in the air situation – the most convenient for a hospital doctor who needs to get in and out but one of the least efficient positions for, you know, the one who’s pushing the damn kid out. The lack of regulation and training support for midwives in the US means that too many of those who are left ARE woo, superstitious, whatever – however, that’s a direct result of our countries policies, NOT of midwifery itself.

http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2009/08/31/home-birth-with-midwife-as-safe-as-hospital-birth.html

If I had given birth one hundred years ago, me and my son would have died. I won’t go into the details, but I am glad the option of proven medical science exists.

Labor is different for every woman. I know women who say their labor wasn’t that painful and women who passed out from the pain. Until you have experienced it, you have no idea how your body will react! I kept my options open and about six hours into my labor I opted for pain medication. I certainly had a different experience than my mother who was knocked out and had my sister pulled from her womb while unconscious when she gave birth in the early 1970’s. We’ve come a long way since then.

Women should be told their options and should be able to decide for themselves what kind of birth experience they want without being guilted into soemthing they are not sure about or are uncomfortable with. For me, I decided a non-hospital birth was not for me and it turned out I was right. (and I knew I am a giant wuss so that played into my decision:) I still feel like a “real” woman, whatever that means.

As a Family Medicine physician who practices OB, I encounter these issues often. My usual discussion throughout the course of pregnancy is “you can’t choreograph life.” I (and the vast majority of my colleagues) prefer the least intervention possible, within the parameter of “healthy mom, healthy baby.” Sometimes things happen which require intervention. It is at best negligent to preclude an intervention as an endpoint which supercedes the endpoint of a healthy outcome.

I can’t count the number of times I encounter women with post partum depression who are “failures” because they couldn’t deliver vaginally, couldn’t go without an epidural, couldn’t breast feed, need some ‘adult time’ or find work/career/other activity a necessary part of their lives: everyone fails the standard of anothers perfection.

Let me just nod and agree with Microbiologychick on both points. The point about the midwives *and* the point about OBs. I live in one of those states with a very high C-section rate. So go ahead and tell me that one hospital has a high rate because all the high risk moms go there, but an entire state? So the whole country ships high risk moms over here? Yeah. Right.

I went to a doctor with my first birth and (because I was so unhappy with the “experience” – sorry if that bugs anyone, lol!) I went to a midwife the second time. I had a healthy baby both times. That’s what we’re going for right?

Eh, whatever. I don’t blast anyone who doesn’t do as I do but yeah, I know plenty on both sides who do (just ask what many people think of me for staying home and -*gasp*- homeschooling!). Seriously, it can be from both sides.

You know what though? The “mommy wars” thing is not just moms. It’s a part of human nature to divide into groups and declare yourself better than the other. We try to overcome it (well, some of us do), but it’s there. The mommy stuff is no worse than anything else. A few weeks ago I even commented to my husband that the atheist vs. religious and the science vs. woo stuff I was reading online really reminded me of some mommy war stuff . Some of the comments on blogs are just so nasty and full of themselves. Either think the way they do or you are an idiot – that sort of stuff. I really don’t like when people try to say that it’s only us wacky, unreasonable moms who act like this.

And while you’re at it, stop taking tylenol, advil, and aleve. It’s god’s will to make you suffer through headaches and arthritis! Just like women are supposed to suffer through childbirth. Quit trying to avoid pain…

My wife didn’t have pitocin, but had demerol at one point that “takes the edge off” (which didn’t do much for her) and an epidural.

My daughter came out healthy and awake and has developed into a wonderful 8-year-old who I delight in spending time with.

I don’t think the epidural or the demerol had any negative effects… and if you ask my wife, they had huge positive effects. 😉

My wife had a natural homebirth, and we have a healthy son. Having our son at home was a fantastic experience. My wife was up and about within a couple of hours. Without having had any unnecessary surgery, she recovered very quickly. The three of us were all at home and comfortable instead of in hospital waiting rooms. That said, at the first indication of complication, we would have been off to the hospital. I am a firm believer in modern medicine when it is medically necessary. But many doctors will cut women open just because it’s more expedient. That isn’t a decision grounded in sound science. That’s a decision made for the doctor’s convenience, and leads to a more difficult recovery for the mother.

There are anti-science loonies out there on all fronts of the mommy wars. Please be careful about lumping all people who choose to try natural births and home births in with the crazies.

Earlier comments have covered things pretty well, but yeah, be careful about painting with too broad a brush — of course the anti-medicine crazies will gravitate to natural childbirth, but that doesn’t mean everyone who makes that choice is crazy. A lot of birth practices in the US are more about making the process efficient and predictable and lawsuit-proof from the doctor’s perspective than finishing with healthy mom and baby. The c-section rate is the obvious example, but there are others.

My wife had a natural childbirth, and our experience with the doctors since then has been terrible, since they keep treating us like idiots and pleading with us to vaccinate our child and everything — and OF COURSE we vaccinated her, and we were clear about that from the beginning, because we ACTUALLY researched the risks and probable outcomes. But that doesn’t matter, because we’ve already been categorized in our doctors’ minds as superstitious crazies, and so they keep warning us about the horrible death our child will suffer if we don’t do exactly what they say. As parents who actually do know what we’re doing, it’s insulting, and honestly? If we actually were anti-medicine crazies, I don’t think the way they’ve been dealing with us would be doing anything to change our minds. There are a lot of sociological complications in American medicine that keep this issue from being a simple pro-science / anti-science dichotomy.

That said: people who question whether someone is a “real” woman or a good mother or anything else based on how they give birth are asshats. It’s really creepy to me the way all of society suddenly thinks a woman’s body is their business as soon as she gets pregnant.

I don’t understand why people who opt for “natural” childbirth and those who prefer or require more intervention need to be at odds with one another. A mother needs to be educated as to her choices and the risks involved in each one. If she opts for no drugs that’s her call, and if she wants to be induced and drugged and dilated that is too. As long as you aren’t in any way risking the health of the baby and you are properly informed of the risks and/or discomfort of a given choice, it’s no one’s damn business but yours.

However I put the brutal and unnecessary practice of circumcision in a whole different category. I know that many of the same people who look down on drugs during delivery are the same ones who are against circumcision, but in this case they happen to be right. Genital mutilation is deeply immoral when it is done without the informed consent of the person getting it and when it is done with exactly zero medical necessity (as in the INMENSE majority of circumcision cases). A small percentage of baby boys suffer botched circumcisions that permanently damage them; an unacceptable number given that circumcision is done for no good medical reason in almost all cases.

Two births; two completely different experiences. First delivery: epidural, c-section. Second delivery: no meds and a vaginal birth after c-section (VBAC, – no longer allowed in the US).

My experiences are less about the delivery but more about who helped me along the way.

With my first pregnancy, my male Ob/Gyn seemed to treat all his patients like idiots, and expected them to follow him like sheep. (All my girlfriends used him.) I went along, not knowing any difference. He was fly-fishing in Jackson Hole, Wyoming when I went into labor, so I got his backup doctor who had the bedside manner of a gnat. I saw him less than five minutes every hour, where all he did was stick his finger in me and tell me how dilated I was. Labor stalled since I had laid on my back for eight hours with an epidural. C-section followed.

2nd birth: I used a midwife in a hospital, with a doctor on standby. She was at my side the entire time, I moved around a lot, and had the baby in no time with no drugs. (And, it’s true: whatever the body kicks in to make you forget labor is amazing. Unfortunately for me, my husband didn’t have those same endorphins so he gets to remind me of how much I yelled.)

I’m a big fan of science. But, with modern medicine, the idea of “convenience” has creeped in. Why let a labor take its own time when a doctor can induce and be home by 6:00 PM? Why not schedule a c-section for a Friday, so it doesn’t interfere with anyone’s weekend plans. Let’s do an episiotomy because it takes less time to sew up.

But, for me, it’s not the drugs or the medicine. It’s plain old-fashioned “being treated like a human being” by the medical staff.

I’ve had four children via c-section….two boys and two girls….both my boys are circumcised….they were all formula fed….they are all up to date on their vaccinations….I did not wear them 24/7….I put them in a baby cage (crib)….and DESPITE all of that I have four happy and healthy children….go figure. 🙂

*my reasons for any of the above are not important….what is important is the outcome. 🙂

Hannah, I’m glad your mom is a thoughtful Ob/Gyn, but I also come from an Ob/Gyn family, and I hear different things.

Yes, there are a lot of women who want “convenient” delivery dates, but doctors buy right into it.

And, doctors in US residency programs for the last 10 years don’t even know what a pregnancy looks like, after 40 weeks. They don’t have any practical knowledge of treating a woman past her due date, even by a day. Doctors induce as soon as they hear, “my due date was….” in the past tense.

A side note: the malpractice issue is horrendous, and terribly unfair to doctors.

I think there’s far too much “you’re doing it wrong” going on in the mommy wars.

Sorry, we listened to our doctor. Don’t like what we did? Have your own kid.

For our part, we were epidural and bottle. We tried breast, we wound up going bottle.

We didn’t have really any trouble with the “mommy wars” of people telling us how we should do things differently. We don’t need to please any of those jerks.

Healthy baby, healthy mom. That’s all that I could hope for.

Sebastian Flynn Loughman Hewlett was born via emergency Cesarean section. Had he not been extracted, he would have strangled in his own umbilical cord. I will fight to the death any woman who says that his mother should have had him “naturally.”

And that’s really my final say on the matter. I don’t care who you are, what your opinions are on medicine, or what your religion is. It is the woman who should decide what happens to herself and her child, not some hoity-toity self-righteous “SuperMommies” who have convinced themselves that since they have successfully birthed and raised a child or two, they know exactly how it should be done for every baby EVER.

I had two boys drug free. Circumcised them both. Worked all their lives. Sent them to public school. Let them play video games and gave them toy guns.

Neither of them hate me. Neither of them are axe murderers. Neither of them are disabled or unhealthy in any way.

Oh yeah – and I taught them how to think.

Whatever.

Cathy,

While obviously a surgery is going to have a longer recovery time than a vaginal birth, I would hardly say that either c-sections or epidurals have “major health effects” on women delivering. And I was arguing against people who claim that epidurals and c-sections are bad for the baby, which they are not.

That being said, I think the point is that women should be able to weigh the options and make the best decisions for themselves based on sound scientific fact, and never on myths, superstitions, or pressure from society. I absolutely agree that a woman should never be coerced into making a decision about her own body, not by doctors or hospitals or even, as you mention, the justice system.

I’ve never heard about women being forced into undergoing procedures for the health of their fetus before. That seems consistent with the law that abortions can’t be performed after the point of viability. I am avidly pro-choice but certainly feel that abortions should not be performed after a certain point in development. And I feel that when parents’ personal superstitions about medicine lead them to deny treatment for their children, that constitutes child abuse. Yet forcing a woman to undergo a c-section for the health of her child seems absurd. I’d have to know the details of the case, but even if there was 100% certainty that the child would die during a natural delivery as opposed to c-section, it is still fundamentally wrong to force someone to undergo a procedure on their own body.

It’s a tricky issue. Thinking about expectant mothers who drink or do drugs during pregnancy and thus leave their children with serious health problems forever really makes me angry. But the idea of controlling women’s behavior in the name of protecting their fetuses smacks of the ideology that a woman’s purpose is for childbearing and that her health and freedom is second to her child’s.

Cathy, thanks so much! I was going to say that.

I’m not saying some cases don’t warrant C-sections, but US hospitals have an average of 25~30% c-section rate, some hospitals give as many as 50% of their women c-sections during labor.

Don’t you think that’s a bit high for something women are born to do? Do we really need THAT much help giving birth?

I’m all for feeling less pain during labor, but not at the cost of someone cutting through all of my major muscles on my stomach, peel through my organs, my stomach, get to my womb, cut it open, take the baby out, sew it together, put my organs back at their rightful places, then sew me back together.

C-section is a MAJOR operation and should only be used in situations where they are absolutely necessary. We don’t give random people heart surgeries just to see what will happen. If someone has an ulcer where we can fix with medicines, we don’t cut him open to sew his ulcer back so he’ll heal faster, so why do we so readily cut women open?

Do women that chose Cesarean sections really don’t care that they won’t be feeling much in the lower half of their stomachs, ever again? Were they told after one Cesarean section they won’t be able to give birth without another one? This woman I know had three C-sections (she actually needed them, her body rejects fetuses, making her pregnancies very dangerous). She showed me her scar and said she couldn’t feel anything below the scar. THAT. Permanently changed how I feel about Cesarean sections. I’m more afraid of them than I am afraid of labor, and I’m quite afraid of labor.

I plan to use a birthing center when I’m pregnant. It seems most countries that don’t have US’s freakishly high c-section rate use birthing centers. I intend to avoid a c-section at all cost. Unless if the baby or I am dying, I would not be authorizing any cutting of my body for the sake of convenience.

I’ve also heard the claim that childbirth is not actually supposed to be painful, and that our current childbirth process is what makes it painful. Again I believe this is just a way of sweeping aside and disbelieving women’s pain – essentially saying, “It’s not really that bad.” Many people (though not all) who advocate birth outside of hospitals claim that the birth process is not painful. This is utterly untrue – birth is painful because of human anatomy and has nothing to do with the hospital setting. Telling an expectant mother that she is not supposed to feel much or any pain is sure to make her feel like she is doing something wrong when she inevitably experiences a lot of pain.

i’m a 20 year old male with no kids (and won’t have any for a long time), but i do have some knowledge about human evolution. the human pelvis shaped in a way that balances between functionality for upright walking and being wide enough for child birth. also, humans (as well as primates) have very long periods of pregnancy compared to others animals, and combined with larger brains makes a human baby a difficult one to birth out of a pelvis trying to be functional in multiple ways. basically, birth for humans is very difficult and painful because of upright walking and very developed offspring at birth. anybody who claims that child birth isn’t supposed to be painful or that it’s our current methods that make it painful/difficult is absolutely and completely wrong.

Circumcision ? Why would you mutilate your kid’s genitals ?

It’s illegal to do it to girls in many countries. Why would you do it to your boy ?

One of my best friends gave birth last month. She had been hoping for a natural birth with naturally starting labor, no epidural, etc. As her due date grew closer, however, the baby got bigger and nothing else happened. She was finally induced using pitocin a week after she was due and still had no signs of imminent labor. Due to the effects of the pitocin, she also got an epidulal after several hours of horrific contractions. End result? While she wishes things would have happened naturally, they didn’t and she and her baby are okay. That’s what matters most.

Luckily most doctors are forgoing things such as episiotomies and forceps and are generally more open to women giving birth naturally, or going without the epidural/pitcoin as long as they feel comfortable. It’s most important for mother and baby to be healthy and for the mother to do what she can/wants, not what’s the latest fad or pressure!

OK, I’ll add my story to the fray:

When I became pregnant with my son, I began reading about pregnancy and childbirth. A lot. I decided, after much research, that I would attempt a natural, drug-free childbirth. I talked to my midwife(s), drew up a birth plan and thought that was that. Well, 1 week and 1 day past my due date, my midwife (midman?) told me that he recommended I go in for an induction, as my amniotic fluid was low and we were getting close to the 2-week-past-due cut off (where they seem to think the placenta starts becoming less and less efficient and starts to break down). Off to the hospital for an induction…definitely NOT what I wanted.

So, after being administered cervadil to start contractions, I went into labor. Contractions were easy at first, until my water broke. Then all hell broke loose! I don’t know if it was because I was induced or because I have a low pain tolerance for that sort of thing, but I was begging for an epidural within the hour! They administered the epi, whereupon my contractions abruptly slowed (a known side effect of the epidural). So, in order to get my contractions going again, the midwife ordered pitocin. Since I already had the epidural, I didn’t notice any contractions. Also, I couldn’t feel my legs, which was alarming.

I labored for 24 hours, on my back, with pitocin and an epidural. When I reached 10 cm and was told to push (I had no urge to push), my son’s heartbeat began to decelerate with each contraction, and an OB/GYN was called in to monitor us. She (strongly) recommended that I go in for a c-section, since she didn’t like the decells. Being determined to give birth vaginally, I asked if I could turn off the epidural for an hour and try to push in different positions; on my knees, squatting, etc. When I started to feel the contractions, pushing helped the pain, but my son was not descending. After 24 hours of labor and 3 hours of pushing, I was wheeled into the OR for a C-section. I was crying the entire way, feeling like an absolute failure.

Thankfully, my son was born healthy and alert, but was sunny-side-up with the cord wrapped around his neck. Twice. There was no way on earth that he could have been born vaginally…one or both of us would have died.

Now, I am privy to all the nuances of the debates as outlined in comments above, and my first choice would have been to go all natural. But, what with being induced, the downward spiral of interventions and the fact that my son was in a bad position with cord around his neck, it became an impossibility.

To this day, I ask myself: if I had just waited to go into labor, would he have righted himself into the correct birth position? Would I have been able to give birth naturally, without intervention? Perhaps. Or, we could have had the same outcome. I don’t know.

The point is this: be informed. Know what is going on, and make informed decisions. Follow your path, and if it deviates from necessity, then so be it. But don’t just do what the doctors tell you to do without thinking. I wish, wish, wish that I would have listened to my mommy instinct and waited to go into labor naturally. But, I’m glad that the medical professionals were there to save our lives when we needed them.

If this post sounds ambiguous, it is. I still have mixed feelings about the whole childbirth experience. Emotionally, I wish it had gone one way, but logically, I am just glad that he’s here, safe and sound.

On a side note: C-sections are not without risks. They are major abdominal surgery. My c-section resulted in a very serious DVT (blood clot) that almost killed me. I’m still in pain 2 years later, and still on an aspirin regimen.

Also, I’d like to add that I do think that the American system of treating pregnancy and childbirth as a medical condition does cause harm, due to often unnecessary or overused interventions, that result in much higher (and unnecessary) C-section rates. It does women and babies a grave disservice.

WayBeyondSoccerMom, can’t find where VBACs are no longer allowed in US, can you point me in the right direction?
Alos, teher are more complication associated with epidurals, they are, after all, placing a large needle into your spine. and more complications with pitocin induced labour, threfore making drug-free childbirth the way to go if it is safe for the delivering mother.
That is the key point. There is nothing wrong so long as you end up with a healthy mom and a healthy baby. But you are better off statistically going natural.
Having said that, labour SUCKS! I had 2 babies naturally and it really really hurts. But it is only for a day and I have to say I would choose delivery for 1 day over being pregnant and uncomfortable and in mild pain for 9 months any day.

My wife had a natural water birth because she felt more comfortable that way and everything went just fine. The water birth center where we had our child had over 300 children birthed there and only ever had to take a woman in labor to the hospital due to complications one time in their history. They never lost a baby, which is not that surprising considering how low maternal infant mortality is, “natural” or otherwise (something like 13 in 10,000)

A friend of ours recently had a child at the hospital and they induced her on her due date. She had a ton of complications and they gave her a C-section because the cord was wrapped around the babies neck, which is typically unnecessary. They would not let her stand or squat or get on her hands and knees because she was connected to a bunch of machines (she was not a high-risk pregnancy.)

She and the baby lived, but it sounded like a really unpleasant experience.

And granted, these are completely anecdotal stories, but frankly it seems counterproductive to numb someone completely from the waist down and make them lay on their back the entire time where gravity cannot help the process. Moving around according to the way things are feeling to the mother helps the baby descend and speeds the process along.

Women should be free to choose how they want to have their children without being labeled a “crunchy mega mommy.” There is plenty of evidence that natural child birth is as safe, if not safer than child birth in a hospital. The assumption that more medical intervention is always somehow “better” seems fallacious.

On the other hand, if women want to have babies in hospitals, I say more power to them. Let them do it how they want to. The “mega-mommies” do exist and they do put their nose in where it doesn’t belong.

I ended up having a c-section with my first daughter because she was stubborn enough to flip around in the womb during the past few weeks (going breech and getting tangled in the cord). I had been seeing a midwife throughout the pregnancy (I’m Canadian BTW) and she was the first to go “Hmm, this doesn’t seem right”, send me for additional ultrasounds and shuffle me off to a fantastic midwife friendly OB. I never went into labour as my c-section was scheduled. My back up midwife was there with me and my husband during the operation and afterwards for several weeks. Best of both worlds considering the circumstances really.

I’m now pregnant again and my former back up midwife is my primary caregiver now. The OB said he didn’t see any reason why I couldn’t try for a vaginal birth. I got many comments from doctors and midwives about how well I healed – apparently my OB has mad skillz. The birth will be in the hospital though as recommended (or rather insisted upon) by my midwife. The group of midwives she belongs to do about 25% of births at home and only for low risk and on request. The rest are in the local hospital’s birthing wing, same as the OB managed births.

I’m hopeful about the VBAC but realistic in possible outcomes. I do know from talking to other women, vaginal birth recovery time is nothing compared to the weeks of healing faced after a c-section. If I do require a c, or an epidural, I hope I get the same Anesthesiolgist. He was brilliant.

On a side note, given my research, I am not in favour of circumcision. From the stats, circumcisions are much less popular now too and not covered by universal healthcare (they were delisted, having been deemed a cosmetic procedure). In Canada, depending on the province, it’s ~20% of males babies or lower that are circumcised. In the U.S. rates seem to fall between ~50-75% depending on the state.

Oh, and my hospital (US) does some VBACs. Not as many as they used to, but they are not forbidden, just shown to be less safe than previously thought.

Look, I never said that there are not cases where these procedures are nessecary or that women should not be allowed them, but the US has a habit of doing things that are unnessecary and without proper consent. I myself was born induced because of my mother’s health problems (severe PIH and start of kidney failure). However, my mother’s circumstances were far different from my cousin whose doctors wanted to induce because they feared she would birth on the weekend. Each case is different and each person should get to make the decisions on what is right for her. It is not that I oppose medical intervention in childbirth, what I oppose is the denial of consent and options. A vaginal, non-medicated, non-induced, non-hospital birth is for most pregnancies (this meaning pregnancies that are not high risk) a perfectly safe option. It is not anti-science to refuse
medically unnessecary procedure if you do not desire them.

As for epidurals, they prolong labor, increase the risk of small blood vessel rupture, and increase the risk for other complications. Yes, labor can be very painful for some people and they may consider an epidural their best option. Fine. But informed consent means that they should know the risks going in as well.

As to the hospital imprisonment case, here’s a link to the ACLU’s friend of court brief on that specific case http://www.aclu.org/reproductiverights/pregnancy/40571prs20090803.html. A recent case of child abuse charges for refusual of c-section is new jersey division of youth and family services v. v.m. and b.g. In this specific case, the woman had previously birthed two other VBAC children, both healthy and did manage to avoid the c-section in this case, with no negative health outcomes for the baby. The woman charged with murder is here: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/12/national/main605537.shtml. Though her case is less clear cut, she was charged on the basis of c-section refusal and convicted on child endangerment based on this and her drug use alone (drug use during pregnancy). This was not a late term abortion case at all, for this woman did not have or want an abortion, but rather gave birth vaginally as she wanted. I did not make this stuff up, these kind of cases do happen in the US.

As to the research thing, I am from an area with only two hospitals within 1 1/2 hour drive and only one of those does deliveries. Many women in this area are poor with low levels of education (the average reading level in the county in fourth grade). We live in a country where the average reading level is sixth grade, so research may not be as easy as you assume. A woman should not be penalized for being poor and uneducated. You are lucky to have the resources, financially and educationally, to have a wide variety of options, not all women are. It is the duty of a medical establishment to make sure there is informed consent and that they do not abuse patients. While it may be wise to research birth locations, a lack of research does not excuse abusing patients.

VBAC is *not* illegal in the US. Some states do regulate which professionals can attend a VBAC birth. There may be a few states where it is illegal. Hospitals may have policies against them. Physicians may prefer not to take you as a patient. The myth persists because doctors and hospitals are SAYING it, because women argue less if they think they don’t have the option. It’s not true. If you don’t make it to the hospital on time, you haven’t done anything illegal. It it’s something you want, look for another doctor or another hospital or a birthing center.

Two VBACs in the 80s – suggested by my new ob/gyn, which surprised me, as I’d just moved to a rural area and expected I wouldn’t be allowed to even try. Had an anesthesiologist in the room for a while with baby #2, but he finally shrugged and said, “you won’t need me,” and walked out. Baby #3 was less of a pleasant experience – I was exhausted and in a lot more pain that time, but all worked out well.

People told me that having a C-section was the easy way out. It not only saved my son, it is major surgery. I don’t remember it being easy.

My sister gave birth in Australia on Wednesday, 9 days past due date. Started contractions the Monday, didn’t push him our til 530pm Wed. Tells me the puh was the easy part compared to the contractions. They didn’t induce, but did break the waterfs fo her.

Looking forward to meeting the new bub next weekend. 🙂 Proud of my sister, but happy it was her and not me!

One of the only arguments for natural childbirth over surgery that seems good to me is that the fluid in their lungs gets squeezed out better during birth. Having had a c-section kid choke on the stuff to the point that the floor nurse had to stick her fingers alarmingly far down his throat to clear it, I can see that.

When I think of giving birth,all I can think of is “you want WHAT to come outta WHERE?” I will take anything that will make this less painful, and would take a c if given the choice- I’m not afraid of surgery, and would rather my gut cut up any day. But that’s just me- if I could grow a baby in a vat instead, I would.
Giving birth IS dangerous, painful and was frequently deadly in the time before modern medicine.

As for home births, they can go very wrong even if “low risk” when unlicensed help is used
My sister in law is a super crunchy hippie and decided on a home birth with a non licensed mid wife.The MW also told hour she could smoke pot through the pregnancy TI don’t think she meant bong rips, but I digress…)- a big part of why she chose her, I’m sure. After hearing her tirade about “greedy docs that schedule labor around their golf games”,”birth is natural and not painful”, I was worried about her. I researched and found a nice birthing center, offering everything she wanted, plus a trained staff. She wasn’t interested.The end result was nearly a disaster.In short, she had to be rushed to the ER, almost didn’t make it,over a complication that would have been minor if it hadn’t been ignored. She ended up in ICU for days, with the baby in for 2 weeks, also with underdeveloped lungs.This could have been avoided just by having trained help and good prenatal care.

She had access to all the info in the world and lived in a city with many good options. But having access means nothing if you 1) refuse to believe facts because of bias 2)don’t know how to tell truth from woo.

This is why woo is dangerous- it confuses people and makes them biased against science.

Whatever a woman wants to do is ther business, but if they ask me, I will push for trained and licensed staff- regardless of where they give birth.

Also-
I think the religious angle is often ignored- many fundies believe women are “saved through chldbirth” and that they deserve the pain as “gods curse”. These people push for home births as a matter of principle, and make women feel like failures for not having a birth circa 1800. Scary, for sure.My grandma said her catholic doctors refused to give her pain meds, but her non religious doctor made her very comfortable.This was 60 yrs ago, but I could see fundies pushing for this, if they could get away with it.

Staceyjw

Same doc delivered both daughter and grandson. He is still OB/GYN for both of us. Likewise a friend whose four children he delivered.

So obviously first I have to qualify before adding my anedote to the fire: obviously, I gave birth a long time ago, way back in ’83. The experience was so horrible that I did not care to repeat it and haven’t and am post-menopausal so won’t be.

However, the blame can be laid on Mother Nature, not the doctor. Blood pressure soared and doc checked me in to hospital beforehand. He was less experience than he was by the time my grandson was born and he could have handled that better than just turning to my husband on a prenatal check up and saying take her to the hospital now, take her directly to the hospital, do not go home first. I was, of course, panicked by the time we got there.

But I was stablized and got to go home before birth. Daughter was due New Year’s Eve (12/31/82) but due date came and went (and my hopes for having the first baby born in the new year dashed) and with blood pressure issues, doc tried to induce. She was born a week and a half past due. I am here to tell you inducing is even worse than the real thing. Did it two days running, was going to do it a third but sent me home exhausted.

Had two false labors next two days then 16 hours of the real thing. Had planned to go natural but pain was so bad I was not only screaming for the epidural but also to be put out like my mother was (was told with a chuckle we don’t do that any more) and a c-section. I was not rational. Of course, I only got obliged on the epidural part of it, but found out 20 years later with my daughter’s pregnancy that I was too dilated by the time I had it for it to be effective. For 20 years, I was going if that’s what it’s like with one, I wouldn’t want to find out what it’s like without.

I lost a quarter of my blood and had to have a transfusion, back in ’83 when they weren’t testing the blood yet so (between that and my unsavory ex-husband) I’m very lucky to not have contracted AIDS. Daughter was 9 lbs. 14 ozs. and, back then, when people heard her size, they assumed c-section but, nope, she was vaginal. Still not sure a c-section wouldn’t have been better but I do trust the doc (obviously).

He was there throughout the bulk of the delivery, not just the last few minutes. Daughter was born with high blood sugar even though neither one of us is diabetic. It does mean she’s higher risk for it but there’s a family history on my side so we both have some risk anyway.

I felt like jello afterward. I was quivering with no muscle tone whatsoever and could not hold her though husband held her to me for a bit. However, they put the glass bassinette by my bed and I could look at her. Because of my poor shape, as soon as they had me clean and parked, with baby at my side, they gave me something to make me sleep. I usually respond really well to medicine but it didn’t work until they had to give me a second one because I was so entranced with my baby.

That said, I have a one-word description of childbirth and I was agnostic at the time — HELL!!! I can hear the gasps now. 26 years of being a loving mother and six years of being a loving grandmother, I still shock people saying honestly that my thought while giving birth was this was what hell felt like. Mothers aren’t supposed to feel that way and, if they do, aren’t supposed to express it. I defy anyone to claim they love their daughter any more than I love mine. As much, sure. But more you couldn’t. But it brings on the gasps when you honestly say childbirth isn’t this sacred, beautiful experience. Gimme a break. It sucks!

I said I was never doing it again. The nurses laughed and said that was what all the mothers say and didn’t believe me when I said I meant it but, hell, I rest my case. Once was frigging enough. For me anyway.

20 years later, it was daughter’s turn. At last moment, we both wanted me there. I was on one side helping and coaching and daddy the other. The amusing thing was she, who is usually pretty meek and mild, was swearing at both of us and screaming at us not to touch her if we got within a foot of her during labor. I have a potty mouth and am given to arguing a point and during labor I was meek and mild.

Doc was with her all night. They didn’t call me until 6 am. She was having trouble delivering and cord was wrapped and a c-section was being considered but doc took a wait and see if it’s necessary and did just that watched her anxiously, monitoring everything. Needless to say, she had an epidural and I don’t know what all else.

He got the cord unwrapped and labor moving along and she delivered vaginally. It was deja vu listening to him. I had forgotten what a great coach this doc was. Baby and Mom were healthy; I had an emergency operation the following day but just feel lucky it wasn’t the other way around because one of my most precious memories is having seen my grandson born into this world.

She had some post partum but she just gave birth and her mother goes into the ER and gets checked in and operated on. It would have been weird if she didn’t given that strain. I had planned on taking time off work and helping with new baby, instead I wound up in hospital for six weeks myself.

Grandson was 7 lbs. 11 oz. (easy weight to remember) and healthy as was mom other than the post partum. He does have some food allergies and asthma but I don’t think that can be laid on his birth rather than genetics. I’m allergic to peanuts too and suffer from seasonal allergies and am horribly allergic to perfume (which is a bitch; it’s everywhere).

Doc was more experienced by that time. When I go in for my annual, the nurses are always amused that he delivered by daughter and grandson. We had moved out of state and I didn’t return to him until after grandson’s birth and he did remember my daughter’s but it was rather outstanding. The nurse this year laughed at the story and said he must have been scared to bits, he was pretty young then. I don’t know but he covered it well if he was. I’m happy with him and I don’t think I’d have been comfortable with a midwife. But that’s a personal thing. I’d only qualify that it’s a woman’s personal choice with backup needs to be readily available if something does go wrong.

One thing my daughter and I both agree on that birth was easy once you get the head out, you just want to push baby on out. The head’s the tough part.

Unlike me, she’s open to having another but her and daddy split up half a year later and she’s been busy with grandson and getting on her feet as a single mom and having dealt with a major illness of her own in the six years since his birth and is now going to college so I doubt it’ll be any time soon.

Grandson is definitely open to the idea. They live with me and he keeps asking both of us to have a baby. LOL! His stepmother is my age so that isn’t very likely either but I don’t think he understands that.

Oh, yeah, tried to breastfeed but she wasn’t getting enough milk gave up and went on bottle. Daughter didn’t even try. Both were healthy with bottle.

This reminds me of the quote “the only difference between tattooed people and non-tattooed people is that the people with tattoos don’t care if you have any or not.”

The people who get epidurals don’t care if someone else had their kid with or without epidurals.

This is all about needs.

There are good reasons to take various medications/narcotics, or to have an epidural, or a c-section. For the most part, there’s little impact on the baby, and what little there is will be very short term. Some medicines can make the baby drowsy at first. Epidurals will restrict the mother’s movement during labor. They can also prevent some horrifically intense pain, which is fantastic. My wife is planning on doing a natural (read: in hospital) birth and avoiding meds, etc. unless they are medically necessary, but she reserves the right to change her mind at any point.

Lastly, I take some issue with c-sections. These shouldn’t be done lightly, as they can cause some long-term complications to the mother. They can also complicate later births, making it necessary to have further c-sections down the road. I’m not saying that they are bad. It’s great that we can do this so reliably these days. But they shouldn’t be opted for lightly.

– me –

“This reminds me of the quote “the only difference between tattooed people and non-tattooed people is that the people with tattoos don’t care if you have any or not.”

The people who get epidurals don’t care if someone else had their kid with or without epidurals.”

Look, I have never once said that women who choose epidurals, c-sections, etc are bad, inferior, or somehow ‘bad’ at birthing. My point was that there are huge issues with informed consent with these procedures and that they are not as medically nessecary in most cases as people believe. To assert that women birth outside of hospitals is ‘woo’ and that these women are illogical and anti-science is a pretty biased notion. If someone had asserted that women who get epidurals are ‘lesser’ women, I would have objected to that notion as well. Women should be given all of their options and should have informed consent. One of those options is medicated hospital birth, one of them is unmedicated home birth. Picking either one of those options does not make a woman an idiot or a bad woman.

Motherofthree- Childbirth is not a root canal or a broken arm. And yes, countries with first world health amenities but lower use of painkillers (Japan, the Netherlands) have much better outcomes than the US.

I had three births. The first was a high risk pregnancy and I gave birth with pit and no epidural with the doctor practically standing over me with a knife waiting to cut me open. If that had happened my child and I would have been separated for 2 weeks while I was transferred to a different hospital for recovery so I did everything I could to avoid surgery.
The second was a stillbirth in a hospital without any interventions. Not needing to rush, the experience was less painful and stressful so I was able to grieve throughout my labour.
My third was a homebirth attended by midwives. Pain free? Nope. Less pain? Yes. Less stress? Yes. The safest birth of all three? Of course. Partially that was luck, having a complication-free pregnancy, but partly that was because the midwives were knowledgeable and my body did what it was designed to. No weird positions or heart rate monitors, just some pseudo-yoga and Veronica Mars DVDs. lol My longest labour (30 hours) but the best.

I am glad that I had the opportunity to have medical treatment when necessary, but even happier that I was not forced to be treated medically when unnecessary.

Miccrobiologychick is right when she says natural birth is a gateway to woo. We skeptics need to take natural birth back! The Netherlands shows that it is completely possible to have a natural birth culture that is rooted in science.

I wanted to add a couple of links:
http://navelgazingmidwife.squarespace.com/navelgazing-midwife-blog/2009/9/30/medfake-hospital-birth-gone-awry-is-this-typical.html
http://stafl-ivil.tripod.com/id12.html
http://stafl-ivil.tripod.com/id16.html