When the Neighbor Wants to Take Your Kid to Church

I don’t think I would have handled that as well as Beth did. She gets a gold star for diplomacy and tact.

I read how Beth handled it, which I agree with. If her son is mature for his age then an alternative response would have been to say, ‘yes, he can go, and I will go with him as well so that I can explain to him why I question the things that he is going to be told.”

My mother is a Christian, and she took my brother and me to Sunday School and church when we were little, but she always made it clear to us that we were free to choose or reject religion. When I was 9 years old the 7 year old son of the Catholic family that lived next door to us was confirmed. I remember my mom commenting that that was far too young for a person to commit to a faith, because he couldn’t fully understand what he was doing.

When I was in my teens and an agnostic my Christian friend (her parents were atheists!) and I spent a number of Sundays going to different churches in town to see what they were like. My mom even arranged through her Jewish friend for us to attend the synagogue. She always supported me to make up my own mind, even though that didn’t stop her from saying, when something extremely fortuitous happened ‘see, there is a God.’

Both my parents encouraged me to always question. That is the key. A child learns by being exposed to various beliefs and ideas, so long as he is encouraged to question and look at all sides of the issue.

He’s six. Knowing your options is sort of worthless if you’re too young to even understand them.

Also, I thought you said they were just going to play, and not do any church stuff?

“No, thank you.”

“he’s not the one who asked me if he could go to church, you are”

to me, this is the most salient point…

the neighbour is such a hypocrite. nice dealin’, Beth!

I would have been perfectly polite up until she said, “well, of course not,” at which point I would have pointd out to her that the English language has a word to describe her position: hypocrite.

Excellent response. Reading the whole interaction on Beth’s blog is well worth it.

Pointing out the neighbor’s double standard is the most devastating argument against a hypocrite. She wants to let Beth’s son “know all the options,” but she deprives her own daughter of the same thing, and wouldn’t even consider letting her daughter attend some fun event with all atheists.

Also, watch out for cagey statements like

NL: It’s a church thing, but the kids don’t really do a lot of the church stuff they just play. I thought he might like it.

“The kids don’t really do a lot of the church stuff” leaves plenty of room for the kids doing some of the church stuff. Hypocrites talk like lawyers sometimes do, equivocating with little details in their statements. Their words are technically not lies, but their intention is to deceive.

Lying for Jesus is in the long run a self-defeating strategy.

Beth was too nice and way too trusting. The diplomacy she used may have diverted the neighbor’s plan for the next day, but she left an opening when she said that it wasn’t her son asking to go to church. What happens next is the neighbor’s daughter is about to be used to brainwash her son.

This is going to make me sound like the big mean ol’ atheist, but proselytizing religious people should not be allowed near children without proper supervision. They are not to be trusted.

“My son can go to church when he is less vulnerable to just believing things that are told to him by adults. When he can actively question what he’s being told and understand the implications of believing things with no evidence. After I’ve seen to it his critical thinking skills are able to see through all the B.S. that life will inevitably throw at him. Which should take another 15 years, come back then.”

I would have handled it pretty much how Beth did. However I would have made sure and pointed out her absolute hypocrisy and I would have told her if she tried preaching to my child, or using her child to lure my child to church then I would restrict my child from seeing hers and explain to him just how bad some people are.

I like the way Beth handled it, but to be honest, I’d probably have said, “why do you assume he’s going to grow up without ‘knowing his options?'” Beth’s answer is probably a lot better, but I doubt I would have thought of it.

I think that 6 is too young to choose your religious/philosophical outlook- but it is not too young to be brainwashed, terrified, or confused! Knowing that xtians purposely preach to children, with the singular intent to make them xtian, is reason enough to refuse to allow a young child to attend church.

No matter how rational one becomes, there are things you hear that can’t be unheard.I know many atheist adults that still have a tough time removing the influence of childhood religious indocttrination.

We protect children from exposure to ideas/things that we believe are harmful, or inappropriate for their age. Religion is no exception, and should be treated as such.

The atheist parent may differ in how they teach their kids to understand and interact with the world around them, and in the “tools” they use for doing so (generally secular ethics, rational/logical thinking and scientific methods). But they are no different from any other parent when it comes to controlling the things their young children are exposed to.

I would have politely let that woman know that it is appropriate to take my child to church, and that I would appreciate if they did not share their beliefs with my child- EVER.

I don’t feel that this needs explained or justified- but I would make her an offer: if I could take both her and her kid to an all atheist philosophy event, we would go to her church.

Only if my kid was over 12, and asked me themself, would I say ok. (depending on maturity level).
I think it was rude and sneaky of her.

Veritas Says:

August 16th, 2009 at 11:22 am
You: I understand what you’re trying to say, but I’d really rather not.

Neighbor: You are part of the Atheist Alliance and a traitor! Take her away!

Later…

You: Your sad adherence to that ancient religion hasn’t conjured up the stolen datatapes. You should have used the scientific method!

Neighbor: *force choke*

That cracked me up. lol

It was creepy, clearly the neighbour felt like she had a truth to share and all talk of “knowing all his options” is just a cover for that.

I doubt she’ll ever seriously consider the analogy between her feelings if her daughter were invited to an atheist meeting and what she was proposing. After all she was offering “truth”

Good job Beth

I’d drive them from my property and call the police. This is a clear attempt to abduct a child and brainwash him into some sort of mad cult. At the very least the police should pay her a visit. It’ll stop her trying again.

A THING. She asked to take the kid to a THING… than under questioning… admits… well… it’s a church thing……

and then under more questioning…

well, it’s church.

That’s when I’d be really mad, about how they weren’t being honest at the beginning about their intentions, trying to slide it over by hoping no questions are asked…

She definately handled it much better than I would have. I have two daughters and would’ve probably blurted something out like,”No way, I don’t know the people that go there and they could be perverts!”. And that wouldn’t have gone over too well, I’m sure.

I’d probably respond with a restraining order. Don’t mess with my kids’ heads when they’re at their most vulnerable!

This very thing has happened to my family. A boy my son plays with has a *very* religious family (Baptists). The boy and his father have asked numerous times. Each time I have said no and said that their beliefs do not mesh with our own. They try every few months and I am almost to the point of telling them to completely eff themselves.

The sad part is that the boy is the only one on our block that my son can play with. It will be upsetting for us all if that friendship ends because his parents can’t mind their own bloody business.

I would have started off by telling her that she’s fucking nuts and would have gotten harsher if need be. Since most of my neighbors are Catholic, there would have been at least one reference to “VAMBLA”. But since I don’t have any kids, the point is moot.

Something similar happened to me when I was eight or nine. The local religious busy bodies knew my parents weren’t all that religious and so they pulled something similar.

One day they came knocking on our door and started lambasting my parents about how they’re raising “delinquent heathen children” because they never took us to church, nor instructed us in the “truth” that was “God’s word.” What can I say, my parents were big on teaching us to think for ourselves. 😉

My old man wanted to punch that sanctimonious bugger in the face, but they were somewhat wealthy and connected, my father had just been laid off, and Dad didn’t really want to get into a long protracted legal battle that punching the Fundy in the face would have caused.

So, with a smile on his face and a warning to them that “You can try, but I don’t think you’ll be able to convert them,” my father agreed to let us go. So, every Sunday for two years, my sister and I went to church.

It was the worst, and best, two years of our lives.

The best parts? We got to play with other kids. Dodge-ball, arts and crafts, tag, gymnastics, etc… There were a lot of “non-religious” activities for the kids to do at Sunday School, and many of them were loads of fun.

We learned stuff too. They used to do these puppet shows, some puppets were of different races, others were physically challenged in some way, and they would teach us to respect those who were different than us. They always related it in some way to “God’s Will” or other religious nonsense but, to an 8 year old kid, learning to respect people’s differences is pretty powerful stuff and we’ve both carried those lessons with us throughout our lives.

Truly one of the best things I’ve ever learned.

The worst parts? The other kids. When it became apparent, as time wore on, that my sister and I weren’t converting, some of the other kids started getting really nasty. We were rejecting their beliefs and they didn’t like it. So there was lots of bullying, lots of little fights and, because we were the “heathen kids”, the “teachers” would always side with the kids who started it.

The kids were nothing compared to the adults. After play time was over, the “school” part would come and the indoctrination attempts were rough. Endless attempts to get us to believe, but everything they were saying simply didn’t make sense to either one of us. I mean the stories were cool, a guy got eaten by a whale! 😀 But the whole God thing just didn’t click with either one of us, and the longer it went on the harder they pushed.

We couldn’t understand it either, they had just taught us to be nice to, and respect, people who were different than us; we were different because we didn’t believe in God, why weren’t they being nice to us?

Then there were the sermons, everyone had to go. Some old guy at the front of a large room droning on for hours, or what seemed like hours, about some evil people and how we’re all going to hell. At least I think that’s what he was talking about, I somehow managed to tune most of it of out. 😉

Anyhow, fast forward two years, my sister and I are cranky, we’ve had enough of the same repeated stories, the bullying, the endless attempts to get us to accept as truth something that even a ten year old can see isn’t true; we increasingly do not want to go anymore. We started telling our “hosts” as much and eventually they realize we’re not going to be converted, so they stopped taking us.

During the whole escapade our parents never once tried to poison the experience, they didn’t need to, the “faithful” were doing a bang up job of it on their own. 😀

Of course, this story wouldn’t be complete without a schadenfreude moment. 😉 My non religious sister married her non religious boyfriend and had two beautiful, inquisitive, little girls; I love spoiling them rotten and teaching them about the world. 🙂 As for myself, I’m fairly successful in my life and job and I’m more or less happy with how my life turned out.

Their son? He ended up hanging with the wrong crowd in school, got hooked on drugs, and bounced in and out of jail a few times. I ran into him a few years ago, he was out on parole living on welfare. Oh well, so much for my sister and I being the “delinquent heathen children” that his parents were so worried about.

Now I know its wrong, but I always chuckle every time I think of this story because if those parents would have worried more about their own kid, instead of worrying about my sister and I, perhaps he wouldn’t have turned out to be the “delinquent” they were worried we’d become.

After the neighbor made plain to me that her intent was to take my (hypothetical) child to her church to knowingly attempt to indoctrinate my child into a religion that she knows goes against my beliefs, and that she was trying to get me to approve of it under essentially false pretenses, I think my response would be quite plain: “Get off my land. If I ever see you on my property again or if I ever see you speak to my child for any reason, I will call the police immediately.” Clearly that neighbor is someone who simply can not be trusted.

@Todd

What happens next is the neighbor’s daughter is about to be used to brainwash her son.

I think this is a given.

My son wanted to attend church with his best friend. He did that for about 6 months, and he’d tell me that he liked it because they played games and had good snacks. I was *quite* upset, however, when one day he brought home a permission slip to be baptized. It said something like, “Your son has accepted Jesus Christ as his savior and wants to be baptized.” No one in his/her right mind would *choose* to be baptized, let alone an 8 year old (this was immersion). While I sort of appreciated the notice (they didn’t baptize him without letting me know), I talked to him about it and told him that I would prefer he not go through the ceremony. I explained what it meant and what it involved, and he decided against it. Hey, I’m a vegetarian and 2/3rds of my kids eat meat (although I don’t let them cook it in my house). I let my kids be who they are. But this competitive desire to baptize kids who really don’t know what it means–that’s a perversion of what Christians pretend to believe in.

I might have started reaching for the garden hose.

I’d like to think I would be as nice as Beth was, but I probably would fail at it.

I’d probably say something like “you raise your child, I’ll raise mine, thank you.”

I’d like to think I’d have the wherewithal to ask “and how, exactly is a six-year-old supposed to be equipped to evaluate all of the various options offered by all the differing religions of the world? I’m sorry, but when my child is eighteen, she can make up her own mind about your religion. The only reason a church would want her at six is indoctrination, and we’ll be having none of that. If you want to argue theology, argue it with an adult who is equipped to argue back. But don’t come in here after my child.”

I wouldn’t have been anywhere near as nice once the neighbor had popped out with “Oh! Of course not!” at the prospect of reversing the situation. A much fouler version of “bugger off, and don’t come back” probably would have come out of my mouth.

Self control when angry, I have none.

Richard P, you are missing the point, and I wonder if you don’t yet have kids, which would help to explain your viewpoint.

There is no way in hell that I would let a neighbor whom I had not met at all up until that moment, take my six year-old anywhere without me along. You gotta be kidding. The church issue doesn’t even come in to it. I don’t know her from Squeaky Fromme. She could have said it’s a kiddie circus and I’d still not trust my kid to a stranger.

The whole thing becomes even more untrustworthy when the neighbor is deceitful and evasive about the exact nature of the activity, and then demonstrates her arrogant ignorance with the remark “Well, I know you rejected god, but that doesn’t mean your boy has to grow up without knowing all his options, right?”

Finally, the cherry on the Absolutely No Way Sundae For Sunday is her hypocrisy about not even considering doing the same thing in reverse with her child.

It has nothing to do with our “beliefs not standing up to scrutiny.” It’s about exercising sound judgment in not trusting my child to a person who has revealed nothing but highly questionable principles.

You/Me: “Fuck Off!”

Hence the reason why I could never be the “Friendly Atheist”…. lol

Chances are, I would have stopped talking to this neighbor LONG ago and would never have this conversation.

I think how old a kid is when you discuss these things varies from kid to kid. If my kid was as snarky and inquisitive as I was at that age, I would probably let them. Maybe they’d even let me watch. Ah, the look on a priest’s face when a seven year old gives them a biology lecture ‘Don’t you know how babies are made?’ (I grew up on a farm and had a pretty good understanding of breeding, pregnancy and birth). I remember once trying to explain it in terms of cats. ‘Sometimes, your cat wanders off and comes back and has kittens. It may look like it made kittens all by itself, but really it just did the rest of the stuff while you weren’t watching.’ And that was when I was still naive enough to think that the only reason Chrisians believed in virgin birth was that they didn’t know the basic facts about reproduction. When I got older, I became pretty sarcastic.

Richard w.said
“Richard P, you are missing the point, and I wonder if you don’t yet have kids, which would help to explain your viewpoint.” & “There is no way in hell that I would let a neighbor whom I had not met at all up until that moment, take my six year-old anywhere without me along.”

Well Richard let me clarify.
I have two kids one is (boy)19 and one is (girl)16.
First it was mentioned it was a neighbor. Second I never read it mentioned that the neighbor was “a neighbor whom I had not met at all up until that moment”.

I was assuming that it was a neighbor that I new, as I usually make a point of knowing my neighbors. So if the neighbor was coming over to ask me, I would assume we are on talking terms, which meant to me they weren’t that nutty.

Secondly they mentioned that were going to a church function. Now just telling me that gives me the info I need. What are churches for but to convert. No sneaky underhandedness there, We all know what churches are.

The arrogance you speak of , well what else would you expect from a christian? If your shocked or offended by that statement it really surprises me.I personally would expect no less from them, and I know there delusional so it is not worth the energy to get offended about it.

So with that cleared up, and me being satisfied that although my child may be exposed to some different perspectives I see no significant danger with my child being taken along for an outing.

First I would ask my kid if they would like to go check it out. Secondly I Have spent a lot of time teaching my children to think for themselves. I have tried to equip my child with the tools to be able to make good judgments, this seems like a perfect opportunity to test those skills in a real world situation and see how my child fairs. Minimal chance of any long term damage. What a great opportunity to expose my child to “the dangers that are out there.” and to exercise the those analytical thought processes.

Personally I am not afraid to expose my child to things they “are not old enough understand”. In fact I encouraged, it was these moments that helped my children to prepare for the real world.

Also, If I allow my child to go I show an attitude of openness and this opens the portal for further discussion, what a great opportunity to share my beliefs with them.

My beliefs are that if you teach your child to think, you don’t need to be afraid of what their thinking.
You may think by protecting you child you are helping them, but if you Sheltering them your only making them ignorant and therefore less able to handle the unexpected.

By the way I have two great kids fully functional, never been to jail, Intelligent smart and witty.

“I know you rejected god, but that doesn’t mean your boy has to grow up without knowing all his options, right?”

Translation: “You’re a thinking person who has made up her mind, so I obviously can’t reach you. But maybe I could attempt to convert your more impressionable six year old son.”

But seriously, Beth handled things admirably.

Richard P,
Ah, I see where the misunderstanding happened. The fact that Beth had not up to that moment met the neighbor is not mentioned in the original story on her blog post. It is buried in Beth’s first reply to a comment by Jake Kerr, where he asks her what kind of different factors would have made her consider allowing her son to go. She said one factor would be if she had known the neighbor, but that was the first time the neighbor had said anything to her.

I apologize for conflating the story with that later comment, which you would be much more likely to miss. It was my error to think that your decision was made with that information at hand.

I still maintain that the neighbor was being deceitful and evasive in how she called it a “church thing” and only when pressed, admitted it was “church.” That means the children would definitely be participating in religious activities, rather than only playing with other kids, as the neighbor first tried to portray it.

I disagree with your reasons for thinking it should have been obvious from the get-go that the neighbor had dubious motives and character flaws.

Just because a person I meet is a Christian, I do not automatically assume that they are underhanded, deceitful, or disingenuous. They would have to demonstrate those traits as individuals by their behavior, and in this case, the neighbor’s cagey equivocating and dissembling would be enough to spark my strong suspicions. If she had been more straight forward about the exact nature of what she knew the child would experience, then I would not have come to suspect those negative qualities in her character.

I try hard to respond to everyone as individuals, and to make judgmental decisions about them based only on their behavior. I must not practice the same kind of prejudice that I disapprove of in others.

The same holds true for the neighbor’s apparent arrogance and ignorance. I don’t automatically assume that being a Christian means she is so. Once again, there has to be some demonstrated behavioral evidence. Her remark about Beth’s rejecting god and giving the boy “options” suggests that she’s working with a negative stereotype of atheists, and the tone sounds subtly resentful and snide. That by itself would probably not be enough for me to fully decide that she was arrogant and ignorant, but combined with the later revelation of her hypocrisy, when she wouldn’t even consider a reciprocal situation with her child, then she has sufficiently demonstrated that her character is questionable.

I’m glad that your two children turned out well, as has my 23 year-old daughter. Rather than sheltering her from things, I allowed her to interact with the world in age-appropriate stages. I took my cues from her, by the kinds of questions she would ask. She made it clear when she had the cognitive skills and the emotional maturity for every new experience. At six years old, she was not yet equipped for understanding and analyzing what would be presented to her at that so-called “church thing,” and most six year-olds would also only be susceptible to the manipulative aspects of indoctrination. Maybe there are a few six year-old philosophical proteges, but I haven’t met any.

If she went to such a “church thing” and she and I later talked about it, she would be watching and listening for my approval or disapproval of every single issue and idea. That’s what most six year-olds do. They are very perceptive of their parent’s reactions to things, taking in every subtle non-verbal clue, and they are master imitators. I would only be inadvertently “indoctrinating” my own views upon her at that stage, rather than fostering free thinking.

Today, my daughter’s critical thinking is as sharp as a razor, she’s skeptical without being cynical, and I’m proud to add that she does not prejudicially assume things about people just because of their association with a religion. She waits for them to demonstrate the content of their character by their actions.

I probably would have killed the conversation by saying;

“wow, for someone whose not trying to offend people, you’re awfully good at it.”

But then, I live in an area where religionists know better than to be so brazen about their stupid belief, because they’re down to 60% of the population. Religitards aren’t so brave with their herd having shrunk so much in their own lifetimes.