A Response to the Atheism and Dating Video

I don’t comment much but I think I should just to say that you seem like a very considerate person. Everyone has a bad day in regard to public speaking and I think that people who are trying to somehow claim that you’ve set atheists back because you seem mean or inconsiderate in those videos are, in my opinion, being a bit melodramatic. So yeah, you come off a little like a jerk but you’re not a jerk. That’s just how it goes sometimes.

I think that’s a very appropriate response to the criticism.

I appreciate the sentiment here, really I do, but I still think this is kinda weak. Given your speech, this:

I hope regular readers know I would never try to pick on people for things that are obviously beyond their control.

Doesn’t ring true at all, because picking on her for her height was exactly what you did. Otherwise, why did you use the “did she go up on you?” line?

It seems you’re sorry people were offended, rather than just sorry.

I’ve visited this blog for months, Hemant (though only recently gone from lurking to posting), and you’ve always seemed like a very tolerant person. I took your story for what it was- a funny dating-related story- and assumed that the emphasis was on a problem of dating websites, namely that people don’t always tell the truth about themselves on them.

I figured the inclusion of that story was just an honest mistake. Glad to see you’ve confirmed my suspicions there. We all make mistakes sometimes.

Well, ALMOST everyone seems to have been able to get over it.

That’s the trouble with being perfect, I guess.

Hmmm. Sexual attraction is such a weird, ancient thing. When watching the video, I cringed a bit when you said “midget,” but at the same time… I doubt I cringed as much as when you saw her that first time (just being honest, not saying it’s the “correct” response.)

Would people be reacting the same way if the woman hadn’t been a “midget,” but instead had had a tumor the size of a watermelon growing from her forehead? Or, maybe a third arm, growing from her forehead?

The simple truth of the matter is people are pretty hardwired to find significant physical aberrations from “normality” to be unattractive, and for reasons which should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about evolution. To fault Hemant for this is to fault humanity tor being the product of evolution. That doesn’t help the “midgets” of the world, but, thems the breaks. Sucks. Real bad. Reality doesn’t bend just because someone, or even everyone, thinks reality sucks though. Human evolution isn’t Hemant’s fault, so don’t blame him for it, nor for the misfortune of others, whom he had nothing to do with, and he has no obligation to bend over backwards to the point of somehow suppressing a jillion years of evolutionarily derived instinct. If he instinctively is not attracted to “midgets,” so much the worse for the “midgets,” but that’s hardly Hemant’s fault. he didn’t get to choose his instincts, nor who he’s attracted to.

The heart wants what the heart wants. One is not able to choose what one finds to be attractive in a mate, tasty in food, or desirable in art. One finds out what one likes by experience, and what one finds out is typically the result of millions of years of evolution. If one finds oneself on the wrong end of that bargain — nobody seems to find you attractive — that’s bad, for you, no doubt, but hardly the fault of those who find you unattractive.

I appreciate the apology, and I hope you learned something, but that doesn’t change the fact that what you said was inexcusable. I would have walked out (or directly challenged you) if I’d been there in person.

I’m curious how you’d have felt, during the story, if you’d happened to glance into the audience and see a little person

I hope regular readers know I would never try to pick on people for things that are obviously beyond their control.

Then what was with the “helped her climb into my car like it was Mount Everest” crack?

People weren’t offended because you weren’t attracted to a little person. It wasn’t even the use of the term “midget”..that’s easily forgiven as ignorance once acknowledged.

It was the picking on people that was offensive. And for that you don’t even apologize; you deny it.

Perhaps she turned to internet dating because she was sick of people not being able to see past her size?

And anyway, at what point does a person require a disclaimer on their dating profile? Where do you draw the line?

It was awkward because she was a little person who didn’t tell me that about herself.

Why are you displacing the blame onto her? It was awkward because you were someone who would never have dated a little person. If you hadn’t had that prejudice, it would have been fine.

I think that was kind of shady and dishonest.

Why? Because she didn’t anticipate and coddle your prejudices?

Look, if you don’t want to date a little person, then don’t date a little person. But don’t turn around and blame her for your discomfort.

The problem is that all jokes are offensive to someone or another. I thought it was funny, but then I’m a 6’1″ insensitive bastard with no little people acquaintances (I didn’t know “midget” was offensive until now either – then again, I only learned last year that “homosexual” is also offensive).

People say things here all the time that are offensive to religious people (and I don’t just mean the fundies, either). _The Life of Brian_ offends some (though certainly not all) Christians. So sure, raise Hemant’s awareness on this issue (since it was done from ignorance), but WTF is with attacking him for this (lots on Pharyngula)?

I think the height issue was completely relevant to reveal before meeting, since it’s an obvious thing and dating is so dependent on physical attraction. (Just as a bald guy should say something if the picture he sends has him in a hat, or the obese person should provide at least a comment along with a head shot.)

And yeah, the Springer thing made it much, much worse. And also revealed this woman as someone who has willingly put herself out to be mocked because of her height.

Making fun of this woman? Fine. Making fun of all little people? Not fine. But that’s just my opinion.

Sanguinity said

Look, if you don’t want to date a little person, then don’t date a little person. But don’t turn around and blame her for your discomfort.

But this is precisely the problem, how could Hemant NOT date her when he didn’t know.

I personally met my gf through internet dating but i went on several dates and some people are less than forthcoming. I understand, they are trying to increase their chances of a date, but it isn’t fair on the other person when you hold something back that you KNOW might be an issue.

If you are a little person, or very overweight, or something along those lines you must expect the date not to go as you wished. It might not even be because the other person finds it off putting, but only because you didn’t mention it.

That said i’m all for internet dating, but i’d make sure that i chat to the person for a couple of weeks before meeting them if i were to do it in future. Maybe get some more current pics than their profile pictures, find out their views on things like politics, religion, culture, etc. Most especially, weed out the psychos. Viewed like this, internet dating can become a useful filter.

Don’t sweat it, Hemant.

Iconic Spokane author, “reservation poet,” and screenwriter Sherman Alexie is often quoted as saying that he “never met a Native American,” but he knew “plenty of Indians.” Most of the people he knew on the reservation on which he grew up found it hilarious that uptight white politicos sweated and strained and got horribly offended anytime someone used the term they had been using their entire lives, especially in cases where the word just slipped out and was never intended to be offensive.

Funny thing here is that I haven’t seen any responses (at least on this site, I haven’t had time to look through all of Pharyngula, where most of the nastiness comes from anyway) from actual little people.

One of my dearest friends, Ashley, is affectionately known to everyone as Ashley The Midget. No one calls her anything else, including herself- it’s how she introduces herself to new people. And before you ask, no, she isn’t denigrating herself by using old stereotypes, she just likes to put people who are worried about their level of political correctness around her at ease.

I’m not saying that her point of view is the majority in the community, or that others wouldn’t be offended. She does, however, get offended when people feel like they have to defend her for being different. When people are overly politically correct and condescending, as plenty of these comments are, she feels uncomfortable.

In other words: Hemant didn’t mean to offend anyone, the statements may have been a little off-color, but this isn’t a huge issue worthy of intense discussion, and any commenters who think so really need to get over themselves. Really, isn’t sanctimoniousness something you folks typically mock the religious for having?

Peter, I am a Little Person. I, like other Little People, take great offense at the use of the word “midget” to describe us. It is a derogatory term used to oppress and belittle us. I’m glad your friend Ashley is comfortable with it. It is her choice to label herself as she sees fit and if “midget” is okay for her, than okay. That does not make it okay for the rest of the Little People community, however, and with a little digging you’ll find Ashley’s ability to embrace the slur is not overly common in the community as a whole.

I was very offended at the original story, however as a long time reader of this blog, I feel I “know” Hemant well enough to know he wasn’t intentionally being offensive. He simply didn’t know better. It was offense out of ignorance as opposed to offense out of intent. His apology and admittance to not knowing better at the time is appreciated.

Little People may be not be vocal here (in fact, this is the first comment I’ve ever made on his blog), but we are very vocal about the offensiveness of the word “midget”. It’s not “uptight white politicos” in this case… it’s us as a community trying to get rid of the negative stereotypes. Others have linked to a Salon article about the subject.

Here are some other Little People speaking out against the word in the public eye as a whole:
The Little People of America homepage discusses the word “midget”

Daniel Woodburn educates Robert Ebert

I didn’t know “midget” was offensive until now either – then again, I only learned last year that “homosexual” is also offensive

Damn, I guess I need to go to a remedial politically correct 101 class.

Homosexual is offensive? Really?

@Sanguinity
Yeah uh it’s really not prejudice if you don’t want to date a little person. You’re not pre-judging. It’s not like you’re immediately assuming she’s a horrible person because she’s a midget, and that’s why you won’t date her. You KNOW that you wouldn’t be PHYSICALLY attracted to her because she has a particular PHYSICAL attribute that is readily apparent. The blame for the uncomfortable date goes with the little person in this one, since he never would have gone on the date in the first place otherwise.

Say I don’t like dating girls with really flat chests. Same deal – it’s a factor outside of their control, but i’m just not as physically attracted to her as I am to a girl who is more well-endowed. No, it’s not fair, but neither is life. I also choose the girls I date based on a number of attributes which aren’t purely physical.

Ultimately everyone is free to be discriminating as much as they like in their choices of who they want to date – it’s their personal choice. Are you gonna bust me for discriminating against men since I don’t want to date them?

As far as “where the line is” in what you should reveal online, I think the point would be to use some common fucking sense. “Being a little person” is kind of obvious. Just as what would happen if someone used a picture of themselves from 10 years ago when they were 150lbs skinnier. Results not hard to predict.

bjorn:

Using offensive language to refer to religious people or their beliefs is not the same, because when we use insulting or ridiculing language towards the religious the intent is just that: To insult and ridicule. We’re just okay with it. Hemant would at least say he did not intend to ridicule little people(even if that’s what his jokes and his non-apology indicate).

Charon:
“The problem is that all jokes are offensive to someone or another. ”

That isn’t accurate. It may be that the only jokes that you think are funny are offensive, but it is possible to tell jokes without being a jerk.

Chris:
“Yeah uh it’s really not prejudice if you don’t want to date a little person….You KNOW that you wouldn’t be PHYSICALLY attracted to her because she has a particular PHYSICAL attribute that is readily apparent. The blame for the uncomfortable date goes with the little person in this one, since he never would have gone on the date in the first place otherwise. …Say I don’t like dating girls with really flat chests. Same deal – it’s a factor outside of their control, but i’m just not as physically attracted to her as I am to a girl who is more well-endowed.”

The problem here isn’t with Hemant’s discomfort on the actual date; he actually tried to be civil to the woman’s face, to his credit. The problem is that he later mocked and ridiculed the woman for failing to meet his expectations. Likewise, you don’t have to be attracted to women with flat chests, but mocking them and treating their condition as something that *no one* could possibly find attractive would be beyond the pale.

When I was three years old, I got the impression that I could do whatever I wanted and not get in trouble, as long as I said ‘sorry’ afterward. My mother finally told me, ‘Sorry means that you promise never to do it again.’

So, Hemant: If you’re really sorry, please don’t do this again. Mocking other people for conditions that they can’t help – whether you’re attracted to them or not – is not nice.

‘I helped her climb into the car like it was Mt.Everest’ and ‘Did she go up on you’ are mocking statements based on her height. He absolutely did.

I read this blog fairly regularly, and I know Hemant is generally a nice guy, but he really blew it with this.

LKL,

‘I helped her climb into the car like it was Mt.Everest’ and ‘Did she go up on you’ are mocking statements based on her height. He absolutely did.

The first one is mocking someone’s misfortune that’s caused by their height. The second one is a play on words, it’s observational, not mocking. Unless you think given Hemant a BJ is an awful thing,. Yet the lie is that Hemant mocked and ridiculed someone for failing to meet his expectations, and that he expressed that no one could possibly find them attractive. That was completely pulled from your hole. A damned lie, that’s a terrible false accusation to make.

Marisa said:

I agree with Andrew. Where do we draw the line with disclaimers? Should you be putting whether you have been circumcised on your dating profile just in case it matters to your date? The whole point of dating is getting to know the other person.

True, the whole point of dating is getting to know someone. But whether or not you’re going to have a successful date is largely determined on if the other party is physically attracted to you.

It is in a person’s best interest to be as honest as possible on a dating website, so they are better able to weed out those that won’t find them physically attractive, allowing them to have better success in finding long term dating opportunities.

You don’t need to be intensely personal, a woman can find out my circumcision status when we get that point of the relationship, but you do need to be honest about aspects of your physical appearance that would be blatantly obvious once the person met you. In order to improve my chances of success I would never set up a dating profile without providing the fact that I’m 6’1″ tall, 247 pounds, and have a bit of gut in the middle; it would eliminate women who aren’t into tallish, slightly overweight, guys, saving both of us a large amount of time and potential bad dates.

It might not also be a bad idea to include some of your habits. If you smoke, drink, or do illicit drugs, put those down too. Some people don’t find those things the least bit attractive, I know I don’t, so again you’d be self selecting and saving yourself a potentially bad date. I’d even recommend putting up a recent, unflattering, photo of yourself.

Pete…

@AJ:
Clearly I disagree with your interpretation of Hemant’s words; that does not mean that I am lying, or that any of the other (many) people who agree with me are lying. Chill, dude. Go on over to Pharyngula if you think *I* am being harsh about this.

I understood what you meant with the story: You were surprised and felt awkward because you probably didn’t know quite how to act because you didn’t want the woman to feel uncomfortable, but then she mentioned being on Springer. For me, if anyone had been on Springer that would be something that would nix a second date with them. That show is just full of unclassiness and willfull ignorance. Who doesn’t realize that being on Springer says volumes about your being really strange (and not in a good way)? Yes, it had to be awkward.

That said, yes it did come across bad. I knew it wasn’t intended that way, but I also knew that lots of people would take it that way. I think this post is reasonable and decent in letting everyone know what you meant and that you didn’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings. I’m sorry about the Little Person who is a reader of this blog whose feelings were hurt. Mine probably would have been too if I were a Little Person. (As an aside, I am very petite at 5’0″ and actually have been mistaken as a Little Person a couple of times. I can also say that many men find small women quite attractive and even go out of their way to date them, so it is patently not true that small people are not found attractive, particularly if they are female.) I hope no other Little People’s feelings were hurt. It has to be difficult to put up with some of the nonsense that they do end up putting up with.

Aw, Hemant. This is why I luv you!

I’m still not sure if anyone should have to say “btw, I’m a little person” or have a full body shot of themself as their profile picture. And people’s skin color changes from season to season … sometimes tan, sometimes pale white. But I can see how it would be quite the surprise!

But all in all, I’m glad you wrote this response 🙂

I started leaving a comment, but then it turned into a full post:

http://www.evolvedrational.com/2009/08/chill-pill-ever-heard-of-it.html

I think you are completely justified in expecting someone to be honest before meeting. I mean do they think they are that scintillating that leaving something out about themselves/or describing themselves inaccurately will be OK. It just isn’t the best way to start off a relationship because any relationship needs to be based on honesty to succeed.