A Message from the Creation Museum to the Atheists

The Secular Student Alliance received an email this morning from the Creation Museum regarding the horde of rationalists who will be visiting in a few weeks. It was addressed to us and PZ Myers.

PZ posted it on his site earlier. The SSA wanted to clear up a few things up with the museum before putting it up on our site. More on that in a bit.

First, here’s the letter that comes via Mark Looy, the Chief Communications Officer, at the museum:

Dear Dr. Paul (“P.Z.”) Myers and the SSA:

As the Security Manager for the Department of Public Safety at the Answers in Genesis Creation Museum, I am writing in regard to your planned visit to the museum, along with those associated with the group called the Secular Student Alliance, scheduled for August 7, 2009.

The purpose of this letter is to advise you of our standard policies and requirements concerning guest behavior.

Succinctly stated, and posted on signs at a number of locations at the museum premises, is the following notice:

The Creation Museum is private property, an outreach of Answers in Genesis. Guests at the museum are expected to conduct themselves in a polite, respectful manner at all times. Loud, disrespectful, destructive, obscene, or abusive behavior will not be tolerated, and may result in your removal from the premises. Please be courteous to other guests, security personnel, and our staff while you are here. Thank you!

Also, please be advised that vehicles and all packages, bags, and articles may be subject to inspection when on the premises or when entering or leaving the premises.

In reviewing your blog and website at http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula, we have observed a number of hostile, crude, and profane comments that suggest that some in the SSA group may be using your visit as an opportunity to engage in demonstrations, mocking behavior, wearing offensive clothing, or in other conduct that would be offensive to our staff and to other guests. We note, for example, that you have written that you urge the group to wear “godless clothing.”

We understand that your group (which you have described as a “horde” or “mob”) will consist of over 200 persons, many of whom have posted comments on your Pharyngula blog ridiculing Ken Ham and the Creation Museum, using profane language, and some are indicating that it is their intent to conduct themselves in a manner that is provocative, overtly homosexual in behavior, or otherwise socially unacceptable for guests of this privately owned Christian facility. As I’m sure you’re aware, some of those statements reference intentions to be “loud” and also to wear “armbands” and T-shirts or other clothing with images or wording that would be considered offensive to our staff and others at the museum. Such conduct will not be tolerated.

The Creation Museum is a privately owned facility; there is no legal right to engage in demonstrations, to harass or insult other guests, staff members, or speakers, or to otherwise engage in conduct that would be disruptive or rude. Again, such actions will not be permitted.

So long as you and the SSA group are willing to abide by our policies requiring civil behavior at all times, to include being respectful of others and of our facilities, then you will be welcome as our guests; but if you do not intend to abide by these policies, then please cancel your visit to the Creation Museum.

We request your acknowledgment of receipt of this letter and your agreement to abide by these policies.

We note that, unlike the exchanges posted on the Pharyngula site, communications from Lyz Laddell [sic] of the Secular Student Alliance have generally been polite and respectful, which we appreciate.

We remain willing to host you and the SSA group, provided you assure us that your party will remain civil and abide by our policies and that you have addressed those who have expressed contrary intentions for their visit. We request the courtesy of receiving your written response prior to your arrival. If we do not receive your written assurance that your party will abide by our policies, we will have no choice but to turn your group away at the entrance.

Sincerely,

David Blaylock
Security Manager
Department of Public Safety

cc: John Pence, Esq.

Lots to talk about…

First of all, the SSA will take full measures to make sure no one in our group is being rude or disruptive. We’ll put out a statement tomorrow. We’ll try to bring extra “non-offensive” t-shirts just in case, but I would advise students to bring a change of clothes if they aren’t sure their clothing is allowed. (If you have to question whether your shirt is offensive, it’s probably offensive.)

I hope those in our group have no plans to do anything crazy. It would just give the Creationists something to use in their fundraising letters. If we’re civil and polite during our visit, we’ll look good, and others will take note.

I know it’ll be tough to hold in some emotions and frustration. I’ve been there before and some of the exhibits just makes you want to scream. They are not just anti-science, they’re anti-gay, anti-birth-control, etc. But we must remain civil while on their property.

Once our visit is complete, we’ll have plenty of time to tear apart (and talk about) everything we saw inside using our words and our computers.

Ok, back to the letter. When I first read it, these were my questions:

What constitutes “offensive” clothing?

What is “overtly homosexual” behavior? I doubt anyone plans to perform sodomy next to the dinosaurs… but what about a kiss? Holding hands?

What’s wrong with armbands?

I would also like to know if I can wear a t-shirt with this image of a kid pointing a gun on it:

It comes from Answers in Genesis (the group behind the museum), so it must be ok, right?

The SSA staff sent a letter back to the Creation Museum people. It was incredibly polite (maybe too polite) and raised these questions and others.

Mark Looy said that shirts that insult others or show R-rated material (to sum it up) are not allowed. Science shirts should be ok, but we’ll follow up on this… OUT Campaign shirts and SSA shirts are allowed.

I know that’s vague, but we’ll follow up with your questions, so feel free to leave them in the comments.

"Yeah, honestly, Dave should just give it a rest and suck a guys @ick already."

Dr Tachyon, PhD

David Barton: If People Call You ..."

"I just don't have that problem Dave, I don't act like a homophobe or try ..."

"Gay man here....have always loathed clothes shopping."

kingdietrich

"I'm gay and although I don't mind going to an antique store now and then, ..."

Moose

Hey, could someone take pics and post them to the net? I’d love to see what they have there.
Beth B.

As noted earlier by a Pharyngula commenter, they’ve found a really relevant comparison between the tone of a letter addressed to them by the SSA and the banter of Pharyngulites among ourselves.

I will also be interested to hear what the problem with “armbands” is (and/or the need for scare quotes!).
Jennifurret

The more I read from the creation museum, the more paranoid I am about this trip… =(
Kaylya

To be honest, I think it’s a perfectly reasonable response for a place that knows it’s about to have a large group of people who disagree with their views show up.
An Atheists Philosophy

I’m quite surprised as to their even allowing the S.S.A. to visit. Kind of like inviting the devil to morning mass if you ask me. I love the sign with the “atheist” and the gun. If they can have signs like that, why can’t we have signs of them burning people at the stake or stoning someone to death? Isn’t that what they would like to do?
Stephan

I’m wearing a shirt that has “Atheist” on it with an annoyed mantis pictured. Hopefully that will be okay…
Stephan

Additionally, what’s wrong with ridiculing the message? Christian groups go through normal museums and tell their story to it, we should be able to do the same right? If that means pointing out the illogic of the place, we should be able to do it.

I don’t like the idea of all of us giving up our freedom of speech because it is “private property.” As long as no one disrupts anything or offends other visitors, we should be okay right?

I don’t want to make anyone look bad, but I plan on laughing and pointing and noting what things are biologically and/or biblically inaccurate.
Jennifurret

If you plan on laughing and being obnoxious then be prepared to have a horde of atheists telling you to shut the hell up so we don’t get arrested
Tom

I think PZ and the rest of the gang is wasting their time. Nothing will come of this except some therapeutic release and some new material for PZ to write about. Why does the Creation Museum command such emotional power over these people who are visiting there? I think it’s an insignificant place that, like PZ, largely preaches to the choir and doesn’t make much headway in persuading people.

Work on building an atheist museum that Christians will want to come to and ridicule!
Zahada

I understand and also will admit to having a sick desire to see this museum. I imagine it would be akin to not being able to pull your eyes away from the scene of a car accident.

Still, I am not sure that I agree that a group of rationals should visit this venue. Even at a discount, do we want our money to support an outright lie? The whole concept is a slap in the face to all that is sound and rational! Not to mention the propagation of hate for our fellow humans.

Do we really want to give them the attention / advertisement they so desire?

Not to mention that this is a “privately owned facility”. Someone at the top is trying to become wealthy by spreading lies.

I agree with Tom. Why waste your time but more importantly why (intentionally or unintentionally) support this madness?
Jennifurret

Zahada, I’ve already blogged about why giving money to the Creation Museum is not a big deal.
Robert Madewell

I wish I could go.
I wonder if my “Smile, There’s no Hell” T-shirt would be considered offensive to them? Probably. I think fundies get a sick pleasure out of thinking people will be tortured forever.

As I’m sure you’re aware, some of those statements reference intentions to be “loud” and also to wear “armbands” and T-shirts or other clothing with images or wording that would be considered offensive to our staff and others at the museum. Such conduct will not be tolerated.

Sieg Heil!
Luther

Save this quote and letter:

this privately owned Christian facility.

Just in case a public school wants to visit or use their materials in Science class.
Tom

I wish I could go.
I wonder if my “Smile, There’s no Hell” T-shirt would be considered offensive to them? Probably. I think fundies get a sick pleasure out of thinking people will be tortured forever.

Of course it would offend them! It seems that’s exactly what those showing up are wanting to do. People are rationalizing this trip in order to indulge their desire for vengeance and relief. And maybe I can’t blame you, if you are really not at peace with these people. But they are just people.

EDIT: I saw the post was changed, so if you are confused, that’s why
CybrgnX

The bill board sign on a shirt is great idea.
How about the jebus riding the T-rex
with ‘I Believe’ at the bottom and ‘SURE’ across the top. I believe is xtian, the jebus-Trex is the crap they preach, and ‘sure’ is a positive statement and put them all together and you have pure redicule that cant object to.
There are probably lots of examples at answersatgenesus.
Could do somehting similar for armbands.
If they complain you can honestly say that these reflect your Xtian beliefs- namely none.
The Other Tom

Jennifurret, I read your blog post and I respectfully have to disagree with you, 100%. Yes, $2000 is pocket change compared to their annual budget, but it’s still $2000. It’s about 20 times what I can afford to spend on promoting rationality this year. In one fell swoop, you’ve way more than negated anything I can possibly afford to do for our cause this year.

You must remember: to an atheist, this is a philosophical discussion of beliefs. To a right winger, this is “cultural war” – and they’re fighting it like one, so we’d better wake up and respond in kind, or we’ll get steamrolled. Giving the “creation museum” $2000 is nothing less than aiding and abetting them.

Personally, I’m half expecting that these letters are preparing an excuse to throw the whole group out… one person giggles quietly to themself and that’s “disrespectful”, oh dear, all 200 will have to go now. Or perhaps the word “atheist” on a t-shirt is “offensive”, oh sorry, guess everyone will have to be kicked out now, too bad, you were warned.
Zahada

The Other Tom, I completely agree with everything you’ve said.

I also think they are going to be LOOKING for an excuse to throw the group out so they can tell everyone how “disrespectful” the infidels are…
Thilina

I doubt anyone plans to perform sodomy next to the dinosaurs

well if your going to get kicked out, might as well do it in style. 🙂

any way i look forward to the pics the blogspheres gonna have after the visit (of the “museum” not the sodomy).
Carlie

I think PZ and the rest of the gang is wasting their time. Nothing will come of this except some therapeutic release and some new material for PZ to write about.

Why does there have to be anything else that comes of it? Sometimes people just like to do things for fun.
Emily

Oh geeze, how I wish I could join in. I want to be there to see how this gets handled so bad…. Alas I am several states away 🙁
«bønez_brigade»

Everyone should just wear a shirt with AIG’s kid-pointing-a-gun pic (with the text, of course). Print up a few hundred from an online site and get a bulk discount.

I guarantee that many Xian visitors there will be rather offended by all these shirts that feature a kid pointing a gun at them. See if AIG will ban their own artwork.

That’s what I’d wear if I could attend.
neosnowqueen

I believe someone already pointed out that if any other venue said this to a Christian group, it would be “proof” of “persecution.”

As it is, it’s a reasonable request … on the surface. However, I anticipate that they will use any excuse to throw y’all out after they have your money.
Stephan

I think PZ and the rest of the gang is wasting their time. Nothing will come of this except some therapeutic release and some new material for PZ to write about. Why does the Creation Museum command such emotional power over these people who are visiting there? I think it’s an insignificant place that, like PZ, largely preaches to the choir and doesn’t make much headway in persuading people.

Work on building an atheist museum that Christians will want to come to and ridicule!

You mean every REAL museum in existence?
Stephan

Jennifurret says:

If you plan on laughing and being obnoxious then be prepared to have a horde of atheists telling you to shut the hell up so we don’t get arrested

I’m sorry, but it IS FUNNY. Why shouldn’t I laugh at it? What, is there no laughter allowed now? And who doesn’t point out stuff to other people in museums? Come on, people, if we do NOTHING but walk through like robots then what fun is there in going? No one is going to find out the message, the message is freely available on the net. People are going for the experience. If people want to get in my sh*t for enjoying myself, then go for it. I won’t mock people or beliefs, but don’t think I won’t laugh at something that is funny to make believers feel better. This isn’t a CHURCH, this is supposedly a MUSEUM. You know, with a real exchange of ideas and all that.
They want it treated like a church, then they should have called it one!
Additionally, I’ll also be taking notes, and I suggest those not filming to do so, it makes it easier to remember later on.
Frik

The best message that you can send is to be respectful and tolerant. By being polite, you will show Answers in Genesis that there are decent, moral atheists out there.

Perhaps you should prepare a pamphlet about the good that non-theist college students have done, in the name of positive secular values.

You could mention the Freethought Books Project (http://www.reedsecular.org/freethought-books-project/) and atheist spring break service projects.
Dan W

Well, AiG sure makes a point to avoid mentioning what they would regard as “offensive” clothing, which makes me suspicious that the Creation Museum might use some vaguely defined claims of “offensiveness” to throw out all the atheists going there and keep their money. After which they could whine about how “all the horrible atheists were mocking us” and boohoo, and cry persecution.

Of course, I could be wrong, and maybe the folks at the Creation Museum will be surprised to see how well-behaved and courteous many atheists can be. I alternate between wishing I was going and not wanting to be caught dead in a place like the Creation Museum.
Terence

It’s interesting how the museum reacted to the impending visit by assuming that the SSA has a likelihood of creating unwanted “trouble”.

Perhaps that is the sort of reputation that some in the Atheist camp have attained for themselves. If that is the public perception atheists have, then I think it is quite sad.
Julia

I recommend making up a wack of t-shirts with that gun-toting kid and a new slogan.

“He believes in a literal Bible. Do you?
…and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)“
John Morales

Terence,

Perhaps that is the sort of reputation that some in the Atheist camp have attained for themselves. If that is the public perception atheists have, then I think it is quite sad

It’s a far better reputation than was the case in the past.

Progress has been made, our longstanding demonisation has been somewhat ameliorated by the likes of Hemant.
Craig

Does anyone else think its funny that they have a “Department of Public Safety”?
I suspect this is a very newly formed department. 🙂
Bob

It just seems sad to me that a group of people are planning on going to the ‘museum’ to make fun of it. It does not send a good message about what it means to be an non-thiest. And it’s being supported by the “Friendly Athiest”? Where is the Friendly part? Purposefully pushing the limit on clothing and slogans is just mean, especially as a group effort. BUT at the same time I must admit that wearing their own gun-totting image would be OK. I not for this ‘museum’, I’m just against going out of your way to be mean. One poster said that they would not be disrespectful to people, only ideas. That’s fine but in a group setting, in their building, I think it crosses the line and is intimidating to people. Please don’t give the other side reasons to point at atheists as mean spirited people.
bill

One poster said that they would not be disrespectful to people, only ideas.

Really if you’re disrespectful of ideas you’re being indirectly disrespectful to people who hold those ideas. However, I have nothing against it. A place that purports to display the “truth” and be a “museum” should stand up to scrutiny. It’d be one thing to go into a church and sit there and laugh at people and openly ridicule them, but this is not that. If freethinkers are curious about what this “museum” holds, why not make a trip there? Why not be openly critical? The worst that’ll happen is they’ll offend a few people. Creationists already believe atheists to be immoral heathens, and I don’t think anything from this trip could possibly do anything to affect atheists’ reputations significantly whether positively or negatively.
ThatOtherGuy

I also think they are going to be LOOKING for an excuse to throw the group out so they can tell everyone how “disrespectful” the infidels are…

Personally, I’m as close to dead certain as I’m willing to get that there will be an incident. Either in the form of large numbers of bible-thumping meathead fundies bussed in from churches to stand around and act intimidating, or agents provocateurs trying to start something they can pin on the atheists. It’s going to be bad, I’ll wager.
Stephan

Bob says:

It just seems sad to me that a group of people are planning on going to the ‘museum’ to make fun of it.

Well, I’m not going for that reason, and I think if you look at a lot of the things said by those going you’ll see, even if some in the group have that plan, many don’t.

Purposefully pushing the limit on clothing and slogans is just mean, especially as a group effort.

Actually, the original idea was to be able to identify who is part of the group so we can stick together and keep each other in line. If “pushing the limit” means wearing a shirt that says “Atheist” or “Ask me about natural selection” then the limits SHOULD be pushed. It isn’t like Christians aren’t allowed to wear crosses everywhere.

One poster said that they would not be disrespectful to people, only ideas. That’s fine but in a group setting, in their building, I think it crosses the line and is intimidating to people.

So we can’t disagree with them when we are on their turf and they out-number us and have their “big guns” on hand? What sense does that make? How could the field be tilted in their direction any more without lone atheists going there in place of a group of them?

Please don’t give the other side reasons to point at atheists as mean spirited people.

The already DEMONIZE us, regardless of our actions…and you are worried we will offend them by disagreeing with them to their faces? I say we be honest, civil and friendly…but when something is obviously wrong, or a lie, or just plain ridiculous we should be allowed to say so.
Imagine all the people that we could get a bit of reality to by going here and speaking out in a respectful way.
Richard Wade

Rumor has it that a special team of docents will be on duty at the Creation Museum on the day of the SSA visit, in order to ensure that the tour goes smoothly.
Ash

To those here worried about disrespect, one question;

Would you consider it more or less disrespectful to criticise something without having experienced (read/watched/etc.) it for yourself first?

@Tom; just because it is doubtless some will be offended does not necessarily mean the intention is to offend. If you disagree, you should probably never interact with anyone ever again.

Also, can’t find the link, but I remember reading that the $2000+ entry fee going to the Creation ‘museum’ will be offset by about $4000+, on the basis of $20 by a benefactor to the SSA per each $10 ticket.
ATL-Apostate

Hemant,

I was hoping you could get clarification on the “Naked Lesbians Masturbating with Bibles” T-shirt that PZ mentioned over on his blog.
Ya think that’d be ok to wear?

Also, anyone know where I might obtain one of these T’s?
🙂
Luther

Does anyone else think its funny that they have a “Department of Public Safety”?

Yes it is funny. Why don’t they just pray? Even that seems excessive. Why not just rely on God to decide what the best outcome would be?
Veritas

Personally, I wonder how much they’re still stinging after Bill Maher’s visit to the Creation Museum. I expect that has a lot of bite left in it, and they just don’t want to see another series of news stories about how he’s been duped.

Me? I’d be taking pictures and laughing at them later. I would probably not be able to avoid smirking at the most ridiculous stuff. But I’d try and keep it civil. Being rude doesn’t help the debate.

Alas. I am not going, but one of these days…
Richard

Personally, I think everyone should wear polos and nice pants. I might even consider a suit.

I don’t see the point of testing their dress code rules. Who would I impress?

The museum workers aren’t going to go, “Wow, I am in awe in their cleverness in subverting the intent of our rules, clearly their worldview has merit.” Instead, I’d seem like an angsty child.

The same thing goes with testing their rules on sexual expression. If they can identify my orientations based on in-museum behavior, then something’s wrong.

If they don’t see anything, I haven’t made a point. If they see a kiss (to either gender), then I’m being rude, given the expectations of other patrons.
pete3x3

First, I would like to say GREAT SITE. I just came across it on the OUT blogs and truly enjoy the topics. Normally I dont comment much because what I want to say someone usually beats me to the punch. Although the letter is amusing, it also thretning. The do’s and dont’s are clearly stated. My question is, Do you not think that thay may try to provoke any one in the group or Dr Myers himself, and then play the poor pitty me BS???
LIKE THE OTHER TOM SAID, this is a “culture war”, these fundies ARE SERIOUS!!! Don’t think for a minute that you won’t be harrassed, provoked,ect. Why do you think they said it was ok to wear your shirts and wristbands??? How else could they identify you as not being one of them… Good luck.
Infinite Monkey

I’m of two minds about it.

1) See what they have, and ask questions that would pit what they say with what is now, eg: if dinosaurs died in the flood, were any on the ark? Which ones? Why did they die, but others, in the same condition, live?

2) By going to the CM, you are supporting it. It is private, as they’ve pointed out, so there is no public funding. By not going, they are getting a little less money, and either decreasing their profit, or increasing their debt. (I would hope)

Both are equally valid points. By not going, there’s always the possibilty SOMETHING has been left out. (Have you been? How do you know what’s there if you haven’t been?) But, I don’t want to give them my money.
Dan Gilbert

I can understand their sending the letter to get an assurance of good behavior. 200+ people visiting their museum who are openly hostile to their ideas? That would make anyone a little nervous.

I think the thing to remember is that the behavior there is a matter of common courtesy to other visitors. Any museum (legitimate or not) is a place for observing and quietly discussing what’s on display. Museums are generally relatively quiet places (except the interactive ones) in a similar way that libraries are (though not usually to that extent).

There will be other visitors there trying to enjoy the exhibits and, regardless of whether you think their beliefs are whack, it would be extremely discourteous to disrupt their experience.

I think it’s critical that this visit shows a perfect example of how thoughtful, courteous, and pleasant atheists can be. Any slip, regardless of how minor, will just inflame the Christian stereotype of “rude, angry atheists” and, as you all well know, we don’t need any of that.

So be nice. Be respectful of other visitors. Be good ambassadors for atheism.

…then, after you leave, mock mercilessly. 😉
Jeff

So be nice. Be respectful of other visitors. Be good ambassadors for atheism.

…then, after you leave, mock mercilessly.

This should be the order of the day.
Caerleigh

I’m wearing a shirt that has “Atheist” on it with an annoyed mantis pictured. Hopefully that will be okay…

Hey, I’m wearing that same shirt! I will probably bring a change of clothes, but all my other athiest gear is even more offensive…ah well.
Siamang

any way i look forward to the pics the blogspheres gonna have after the visit (of the “museum” not the sodomy).

Isn’t it ironic that we get the very word “sodomy” from the bible?
Tom

The museum workers aren’t going to go, “Wow, I am in awe in their cleverness in subverting the intent of our rules, clearly their worldview has merit.”

I don’t think those showing up in t-shirts are trying to impress the christians.

Instead, I’d seem like an angsty child.

That’s exactly who is showing up, with their wardrobe and one-liners all thought through, somewhat akin to high-school. “What will I wear that will get me the reactions I want?” Why not wear what you would visiting someone else’s home? Or something that displays some good aspect of character instead of something meant to get a high off of people looking at you with that clothing on?

Some atheists are obsessed with atheism! What’s the point?
The Uncredible Hallq

Re: “overtly homosexual behavior”

Anyone who’s spent time around the crazier fundies knows that a comically easy way to piss them off is to stage a gay kiss right in front of them. This was a favorite passtime at my alma mater whenever Brother Jed or his ilk came to town. Heck, even saying, “I’ve had loving relationships with other men/women” is a pretty good recipie for an explosion.

Frankly, if I were organizing this event, I would put out a message to participants saying “we’re not going to tell you to hide the fact that you’re gay, but don’t shove it in their faces purely to piss them off.”
Defiantnonbeliever

Would my: “God is a Bloody Scam” tee-shirt idea be ‘offensive’? Try as I might I can never tell, short of silent acquiescence what xians will find offensive as sooner or later everything seems to be to one or another.
Narpas

I went with my girlfriend recently (an Atheist reformed from a Southern Baptist – she wanted to go to review what she used to believe), and here are just two more things to look out for that Atheists sites often miss:

* In the Garden of Eden display, the serpent is clearly shown without legs, when actually, in the bible, the serpent’s legs are removed as punishment for the temptation.

* The museum discusses how some animals became carnivores after the fall of man (eating the apple), but then it clearly shows the carnivores subsisting from grain on the Ark. It has the cutest model of some big cats playing with Turtles!

Also, the Time Magazine “Battle over Gay Teens” (http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/Godculture.jpg) fellow’s eyes are scratched out in the creepiest manner possible.

Finally, eat at the in-house cafe. It’s really fantastic food, and it’s a great price.