Who’s More Effective at De-Converting Christians?

I think you underestimate the value of the new atheist. Think of them as the soldiers in the trenches.

Religion is it’s own worse enemy but most religious people never actually see how much harm is caused by their church. The anger, hatred, lies and manipulation would easily be ignored without the likes of PZ and Richard Dawkins to push them.

The new atheist pokes them and since religious peoples are used to being respected for no reason, they panic. They overreact and show how violent and non-christlike they really are. Thus making the more moral christians around them feel disgusted and ashamed to be associated with them. It also gives the atheists hidden among them more courage to voice their opinion.

Your also right about rallying the troops part but you seem to underestimate the value of it. Without a certain cohesion, a certain community between us, we are very weak and vulnerable to attacks. We need generals to organize us into an effective force.

Yes it does cause some christians to dig in and strengthen their belief but we can already see a new schism has been formed between light/moderate christians/catholics and the fundies. The fundamentalists are effectively cutting themselves off from the rest of the world. Making enemies of everyone who isn’t like them because they feel threatened.

This is a war and we can’t win a war with only politicians, we need soldiers as well.

This is why I’ve always said that Richard Dawkins’ science books make a far more compelling argument for atheism than the God Delusion ever could. Read the science, start to understand the span of evolution and how tiny we are, or how small the earth is in the vastness of the universe, or whatever, and then the gentler atheist pushes flow naturally out of it. People are far more likely to be convinced that religion is false by truly understanding science and scale than by attacking their superstition directly.

H;

I think that the most important thing New Atheism (how I detest that term!) has done is to put the proverbial flag out for secularists to rally behind. Five years ago, it would have been impossible to run a bus ad, let alone generate the appropriate amount of outrage needed to convince certain politicos that it is acceptable.

We are still learning to organize, and unlike other groups that have felt the grip of minority status, we do not have a conjoined community to work with. Blacks in the 1960s lived in the same neighbourhood; lgbt people in the 1970s and to this day have migrated to their own communities, but there is no atheist Harlem, no atheist San Francisco. It makes like difficult.

Luckily, we can network over the internet, and making people realize they are not alone is one of the biggest challenges we face. Atheism shouldn’t be closeted, and that’s why religious folk are railing against “New Atheism” – they’re fine with atheists as long as they are quiet, and hiding in a closet. Muzzled, effectively. “New Atheists” aren’t in any way more or less atheist than those who came before. They are simply more vocal about it.

When it comes to the vocal nature of things, you have to look at the simple fact that, globally, more and more people are identifying as secular, especially in the West. This trend is observable before the outbreak of the “New Atheism”, but folks like Dawkins, Hitchens, et. al give the religious types someone to yell at. They can blame the evil Dawkins for leading children away from the light, etc. So, I really think “New Atheism” is a term we shouldn’t embrace. Nothing is new with the way we see the world – what’s new is that we identify publicly, without shame.

So, when it comes to it, I agree that atheists need to be humble…most of the time. But we need to be unafraid of being vocal when necessary, when our rights are being infringed. So, we need to be prepared to be organized.

Personally, I think that being angry at theists, as some are, is a poor thing to do. Oh, I have my days. I live in Canada, but I work in tech support, talking to Americans all day (except for now, a fella from Sudbury, Ont. got through the American queue). And some of the things I hear on the phone bother me. Some people ask my religious preference first thing. “Oh, Benjamin. That sounds like a good Christian name (it’s Hebrew). Are you a good Christian?” “No ma’am, I’m a nothing.” *click*.

Let’s continue to follow the lead of fellows like Dawkins and all of them in our willingness to be honest; but let’s follow the the lead of those who are quiet and humble with their lack of beliefs most of the time. Don’t be afraid to speak up…but at the same time, don’t define yourself by not believing. That’s the trap we risk falling in.

Wow, I havn’t seen this kind of defensiveness in a while.

Who’s more likely to create new atheists: PZ Myers or Neil deGrasse Tyson?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2xGIwQfik

This is a war and we can’t win a war with only politicians, we need soldiers as well.

President Bush might of well have said this. These New Atheist fanboys share the same believe in the myth of good vs. evil as neocons. Can’t you admit there’s a part of this war you are not winning?

And Tom, can’t you admit that by using the pejorative “Fanboy” you are part of the problem?

Don’t be so “holier than thou” towards “New Atheists” if you are going to be so patently hypocritical.

Sadly I don’t really think we’re at a point where we can pick and choose what we need more of and especially what we need less of.

Frankly, we need more of everyone.

Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens (especially Hitchens) are very very unlikely to convert any overt theist. So do we need less of them. Of course not! Their function is not to take true believers and turn them into atheists, it is to take indifferent atheists and semantic agnostics and raise their consciousness to the point where they understand that fighting in the battle for rationalism is important. I called myself a “closed agnostic” (ridiculous, in retrospect) until I read The God Delusion. The “four horsemen” may not have converted a single theist, but they’ve woken up thousands of previously indifferent atheists and also rallied us to the point where a fearful closet atheist can know that he or she is not alone, that there is a community their to lend support.

Of course merely fighting for education is essential, the other strategy is not an alternative, it is complementary. I live in Europe, and atheism is quite common here. So common in fact that your average atheist has little education in science. The only reason that science is such an integral part of the “New atheist” (ugh, can’t we come up with an alternative name?) movement is because science has come under attack by theists.

We are all part of the same movement. Those that may become atheists some day (or at least non-aggressive towards atheists) will not be converted by Dawkins. They may however be converted by the quiet education and consciousness raising of a person who was moved to become active in the fight by Dawkins.

I’ve thought of a nice analogy (I hope) for this struggle.

Imagine this is high school and a group of 5 bullies constantly harass you. Two of them are fundamentalists while 3 are more liberal but following along.

Every morning they come push you and since you don’t fight back, you move 1 step backward. You try to talk to them, plead and convince them to leave you alone. The more liberal ones feel guilty for being part of this and after a while you manage to convince one of them to leave. Now he’s being bullied as well because he doesn’t want to fight back either.

That’s the passive atheist approach. You might convince 1-2 to leave but you will always be bullied and eventually you’ll have been pushed back so far that you won’t even be able to hang out in the school anymore.

The active atheist is usually someone who was once passive but got tired of being bullied and one day pushed back. This will either lead to the bullies leaving him alone or the fundies to lose it and break his arm. If they lose it, the liberals will feel extreme guilt for this and might leave.

If instead they leave him alone after he pushes back and decide to go harass someone else, the active atheist might go defend the new victim, and the next one. Eventually the bullies won’t be able to harass anyone because of this.

Of course, we have to be careful not to become bullies ourselves by doing this. It’s pretty easy to keep the moral high ground when the religious fanatics shoot a doctor in a church though.

Now imagine both the active and passive atheist working together. Do you see how much more effective it is?

I agree that it takes all kinds, and I appreciate the work of Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris just as much as I do those who are more passive.

To ask someone like Hitchens to “tone it down” would be like telling him to “sit down and shut up”.

I have never, ever seen a tape in which the spittle flies from his mouth as he harangues Christians, and yet that is how they portray him. He delivers his message in a gracious, confident manner and is friendly to all challengers in his approach.

I have heard of this “rabid Dawkins” many times, too, but I have not seen it either. I wonder if the people making this claim have ever actually seen him or if they are getting their info from Fox News types.

I have to point out that Rick Warren is considered quite soft by a lot of evangelical standards.

The accommodationists are misguided in their effort to get other atheists to sit down, be nice and STUF. Mooney and Kirshenbaum seem to be clearly trying to quiet the voices of some atheists. M&K’s book creates a big debate that wastes lots of valuable time within the diverse and growing atheist community. While complaining about Myers, Dawkins and Hitchens the accommodationist never once offer a solution to the problem of the Texas Board of Eduction where its prior chairman, Dr, McLeroy, believes god created the earth less than 10,000 years ago. In February 2009 McLeroy had the Texas Board vote on a “challenge to evolution”. The accommodationists seem to be saying that all atheist should be quiet about the McLeroys of this world.

Even Neil deGrasse Tyson does not remain quiet about this type of situation. In February 2009 he spoke at the University of Texas. When asked, he said the following:

During the Q&A, an audience member asked Tyson about conservative members of the state Board of Education who want to teach the “weaknesses” of the theory of evolution in Texas high school classrooms.

“I think they should stay in the Sunday school,” Tyson said. Calling intelligent design theory a “philosophy of ignorance,” he argued that a lack of appreciation for basic scienctific principles will hurt America’s scientific output, which has been the largest economic engine in the country’s history.

“If nonscience works its way into the science classroom, it marks…the beginning of the end of the economic strength this country has known,” Tyson said.

So the difference between Tyson and Dawkins seems to be that Dawkins would have mentioned the Texas situation in the body of his speech while Tyson waits to be asked.

The atheist community needs more people like Myers, Dawkins and Hitchens not less. Yes, Myers crossed the line with the cracker stunt and should be roundly criticized for it but on the whole he is very valuable to our community. He has repeatedly said he does not care what anyone believes. However, he cares a lot when the believer brings stupidity into the public square and tries to implement stupidity into public policy. His voice and others like him is incredibly valuable in beating back stupidity in the public discourse.

Hemant, you may not be asking for Myers, Dawkins and Hitchens to stop their efforts. If you are asking them to not publish books like “The God Delusion” I would like to know that. So please reply. You may just be saying that Tyson is better at converting Christians which I think is probably true. If your post is simply aligning people on the Christian conversion index ok. But I get the message that you want more than that. That you want some atheists to change their methods and message. Is that true?

Yes, the Religious Right has been very effective at hardening partisan lines and screwing up reasonable debate. Do we really want to emulate this?

Of course we don’t want to. The question is, in the short term at least, to what extent we have the choice.

And Tom, can’t you admit that by using the pejorative “Fanboy” you are part of the problem?

Don’t be so “holier than thou” towards “New Atheists” if you are going to be so patently hypocritical.

As I believe it was the honorable Master P that said it, “Don’t start no shit, won’t be no shit.” I think New Atheists are hypocrits themselves, so I take license to be somewhat one myself.

Though of course I think the New Atheists are being less fair. I’m not perfect, and I acknowledge I used a pejorative, but this is a “war” after all like some of the posters are saying. Nothing’s far in war. I just think I’m being less unfair than the New Atheists. So come up with a better reason why I can’t call you a fanboy and I’ll have to find something else.

There’s a place for both kinds of rhetoric. Is that so hard? A diversity of voices surely isn’t a bad thing. If you have an extreme fringe (please note that the “extreme” atheist fringe involves writing books and occasionally desecrating inanimate objects while the extreme religious fringe involves killing people, withholding civil rights and mutilating others’ genitals), then a mellow atheist looks positively mainstream. If we only have a mellow atheist with no outspoken atheist then that mellow atheist looks like an extremist. MLK and Malcolm X were both very important to their social movement.

Believe it or not, there are a good number of people who do become atheists after reading something from one of the Four Horsemen. I’m one of them. It was Hitchens, oddly enough (I say “oddly enough” because I tend not to like the guy).

And Tom, if the “new atheist” rhetoric gives you an excuse to be obnoxious, then I think it’s perfectly fair for me to call you a douche. Because you are acting like a raging douche.

So come up with a better reason why I can’t call you a fanboy and I’ll have to find something else.

This was in body of the same post as the one which used the term “fanboy.” I am just asking you to be consistent:

*Since some people wonder, I don’t believe in God. I also don’t believe in humiliating people who don’t agree with me.

Gordon:

While complaining about Myers, Dawkins and Hitchens the accommodationist never once offer a solution to the problem of the Texas Board of Eduction where its prior chairman, Dr, McLeroy, believes god created the earth less than 10,000 years ago. In February 2009 McLeroy had the Texas Board vote on a “challenge to evolution”. The accommodationists seem to be saying that all atheist should be quiet about the McLeroys of this world.

Gordon, I think you’ve just shown how good the New Atheists are at framing. The whole point of accommodation was to fight the McLeroys of this world, to let Christians know that being a Christian did not mean accepting Young-Earth creationism or any other sort of creationism in conflict with the scientific facts, to break the assumption that evolution entails atheism and give Christians leeway to be allies of good science instead of adversaries. Indeed, one of the big bastions of accommodationism is the NCSE. Now, with the New Atheists framing the debate to suggest that the accommodationists are bending over backwards to mollify all forms of religion, we now have people like you who are utterly unaware of how enmeshed the accommodationists have been in the fight against creationism.

J.J.:

You said:

we now have people like you who are utterly unaware of how enmeshed the accommodationists have been in the fight against creationism.

I don’t think that conclusion accurately reflects my comment. Please note that I quoted Neil deGrasse Tyson fighting against young-earth creationism. The accommocationists present Tyson as an ideal for an atheist scientist. I must assume the accommodationists believe Tyson is an accommodationist. So I can’t be as you claim “utterly unaware of how enmeshed the accommodationist have been in the fight against creationism.”

What I do not understand is whether the accommodationists want the New Atheists (I hate that term and avoid using it) to stop doing what they are doing and to stop writing their books. The accommodationist never step up and say that but their writing includes a very strong message that this is their preference. If accommodations are trying to get New Atheists to stop doing stupid things that is just fine. PZ’s cracker stunt was stupid and childish. He should not have done that. But if accommodations are trying to get New Atheists to change their rhetoric, that is misguided. Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett have never been anything but polite and civil while at the same time being forceful and direct in the public discourse. Some people can take offense when presented with a polite, civil, forceful, direct argument. The accommodationists keep complaining about Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett (and Myers) so I must conclude that accommodationists want them to continue to be polite and civil but to stop being forceful and direct. If I am wrong, please let me know.

If any New Atheist wants an accommodationist to stop being a accommodationist, that New Atheist is just nuts. I want and encourage all accommodationists to continue in their effort. I would just like to know that accommodationists want this polite civil New Atheist to continue is his effort, too.

Myrdek,
Not all stunts are reasonable. I love PZ. Think he’s almost always right in his comments and analysis. I just thought the cracker thing was childish. He didn’t have to go there. But whatever.

PZ is going to the Creation Museum next week. A stunt leaving poop in the museum to demonstrate that the museum is full of crap would be childish, too. PZ, don’t go there.

Pushing back hard on religious intolerance and the lunacy of its dogma is the right thing to do. While doing that, let’s not be childish at the same time.

Gordon:

I don’t think that conclusion accurately reflects my comment. Please note that I quoted Neil deGrasse Tyson fighting against young-earth creationism. The accommocationists present Tyson as an ideal for an atheist scientist. I must assume the accommodationists believe Tyson is an accommodationist.

Yet you contrasted Tyson’s response with that of hypothetical accommodationists who would give McLeroy a pass, and apparently did not consider Tyson an accommodationist yourself.

Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett have never been anything but polite and civil while at the same time being forceful and direct in the public discourse.

If you think that calling believers as “dyed-in-the wool faith-heads” is polite, then I don’t think you understand what politeness is.

PZ is going to the Creation Museum next week. A stunt leaving poop in the museum to demonstrate that the museum is full of crap would be childish, too. PZ, don’t go there.

I believe you missed the point. A cracker is just a cracker; it shouldn’t matter what the hell you do to it.
Defecating in public, on property that is not yours, is not acceptable in any stretch of the imagination. The fact that you compared the two strikes me as odd…

It’s frustrating that this “Who are the New Atheists?” conversation has gone essentially nowhere ever since Sam Harris published End of Faith back in 2003? Was it? Anyways, I don’t find a lot of consensus even amongst people on the same side.

I don’t really think people are being honest with their dialog. Because at this juncture we are still at “I think they (the New Atheists) are jerks!” and “If you don’t like them you’re a weenie!” So in a way I’m glad to be called a douche, because I think we’re actually getting some honest dialog going. I don’t try to be a douche, but I’m too outraged at the way the atheist snobbery is slowing us down and actually preventing lots of new people from joining the “club.” Really, I feel ashamed of being associated with so much of the high-horsery directed towards so many of the people out there who are looking for the truth and make wrong turns along the way.

So when you reply, don’t hold back. I won’t. I don’t believe in that

Perhaps a useful word to you all who are using accommodationalist would be,

Accommodatheist?

I can see why you all might think we on this side of the argument are accommodating, so I’m happy to introduce a potentially useful term With it, we can begin to progress onto further, more applicable names.

Gordon Reid:

I would no think someone was impolite if they called me a dyed-in-the-wool atheist-head, or dyed-in-the-wool evolutionist-head, or sceptic-head, or faithless-head.

I would. I’d also think that it was a poor attempt at an insult, maybe a play on the kiddie slur “poopy-head” or the drug slang “coke-head” or the racial slur “rag-head,” but an attempt at an insult nonetheless.

I still do not understand if accommodationists want New Atheist to stop being forceful and direct in their public discourse

I think that they want “New Atheists” to stop implying that evolution entails atheism and to stop implying that theists are stupid or crazy.

J.J. Ramsey:

I understand and can see how a large segment of the population could take that faith-head line as a poor attempt at an insult. I would not experience it that way but that’s just me.

Thanks for the reply to my question. I agree with the accommodationists (I’m not one of them) that “New Atheists” should stop implying that evolution entails atheism. Also, I agree that the “New Atheists” should stop implying theists as a group are stupid or crazy because there are too many theists that are not stupid or crazy. However, some theists hold theistic beliefs that are stupid and crazy. It is also true that some evolutionists hold evolution beliefs that are stupid and crazy. Calling what appears to be a stupid or crazy belief stupid or crazy only becomes a personal insult when the person holding that belief over-identifies with the belief.

Take our Texas case as an example. Introducing the concept that the earth is less than 10,000 years old into the high school curriculum is a stupid and crazy idea. That idea needs to be called stupid and crazy. Telling the person pushing for that change in the curriculum something along the line of … your idea is of questionable merit but you should continue to work on the idea until it is better formed … might be accommodating but it does not communicate reality. Making high schools teach that the earth is less than 10,000 years old is a stupid and crazy idea. The person pushing that idea needs to be told the idea is stupid and crazy. We both know that the person pushing for teaching young-earth creationism is a theist. We both know that the next step is that this theist (and friends) will cry out against the awful attacks on their theism. But even so I claim that it is completely ineffective to accommodate this type of theist with kind words and polite, non-confrontational replies to their ideas. These type of theists will succeed at destroying the educational system in Texas given we treat them will respect and accommodation.

To paraphrase what someone said before me, I call a rock a freakin’ rock and I call a stupid idea a freakin’ stupid idea.

Perhaps this is a better way of saying it:

“If you are willing to accommodate your beliefs to fit the facts, then we can accommodate you, even if you are not always successful.”

Please forgive my poor attempt at parody.

Groundfighting:

I have a few nieces that are very religious. They know that their Aunt Dietra is a heathen, but they love me anyway. None of them are comfortable with me speaking against what they have been taught, so I don’t go there. But I have been able to get them to sit still and really listen to the many reasons why atheism isn’t the horrible thing that they’ve been lead to believe and that atheists aren’t evil immoral baby eaters (Hemant as the exception). I’m hoping that this gentle approach will get them to one day allow me to probe a little more deeply into the truth of what they have been taught.

Airstrike:

We must have the “public face of atheism” so that new or newly out of the closet non-believers can see that there are others like them. These men and women have the tools and platform to fight the big religious organizations.

Just the presence of a book called ‘The God Delusion’ on the shelves can cause people to question. Deconverting is usually a lengthy process though. But these books certainly have converted people who were ready to test their arguments.

So we may need two types of atheists…but I’m not convinced that Cosby was any better than Chris Rock for African Americans. Cosby wanted to show that Blacks were typical people, and Rock wanted to point out the bullshit they go through, and they both reached different types of people.

If you are scared of theist reactionaries then you are missing the point. Gay Pride parades don’t convince many homophobes by themselves, but by being out there they are becoming ‘normal’, especially to the younger generations who don’t remember when gays were scared and closeted.

The only difference between the ‘come out’ gay movement and the new atheist movement is that there’s a better chance of our oppressors, or people on the sidelines, becoming one of us. But our main point should not be to convert but to announce ourselves, and let people seek truth on their own, because most Christians don’t realize that atheists are not depressed and troubled people.

The Emperor has no clothes, and the New Atheists like to say so. For some people that will work…others are so emotionally invested in their faith that they may need lighter commentary to provoke the intellectual honesty required to acknowledge the possibility of nonbelief.

I’ve read many stories of people converting when reading the ‘replies’ to Dawkins, and realizing their own side’s arguments were absurd. So I can accept that accomodationists have a purpose, but I’m not convinced they are better, though they may be the one’s needed to say ‘it’s okay to question what your parents told you’