How to Keep Your Church Safe

Bahahahahaha, George Carlin predicted this years ago.

“I’m not worried about guns in school. You know what I’m waiting for? Guns in CHURCH! And you watch, it’ll happen too. Some nut will go fuckin’ ape-shit in a church and shoot up a bunch of parishioners and the papers will call him a “Disgruntled worshiper”. You just watch.”

With the blood spatter from all the shooting they might get some actual blood in that “Blood”-O-Christ-Cup. Sure it won’t be Jesus’s transmogrified/transubstantiated/transposed blood… but there will be blood.

Wait.

He doesn’t want to compromise worshipers’ sense of security and sanctuary… so he’s going to put in teams of armed security officers?

Yeah, that’ll help. I’d certainly feel not at all freaked out by that. Very peaceful. [/sarcasm]

I thought I would chime in as part of the gun owning atheist minority 🙂

We have had concealed handgun licenses in many states in the US for quite some time. The statistics for accidents and overreactions are quite contrary to what you might think. The majority of all conflicts with armed citizens are resolved peacefully. Those occasions that a concealed permit holder fires his weapon have a higher certainty rating than most police departments (the person being shot is actually doing something that requires a violent response. Im not suggesting that average citizens are better than the police, as most of the situations are very different from each other)

There is a great deal of data on crime rates and shootings for people who have carry permits. Ive yet to see a set of numbers that show us to be dangerous.

In the spirit of the Vatican hiring Swiss Guards, perhaps churches around the country should hire law-abiding atheists to guard their premises. The congregation would be more safe with their guards being cool, collected, and rational. As opposed to being worked up into a frenzy with Old and New Testament “End of Days” prophesy and focused on an “afterlife”.

Well, it wouldn’t be as bad as the Huck Finn version.

WWJS? What Would Jesus Shoot?

I think if everybody in the pews was packing heat, including the granny ladies with their chrome plated, laser sighted .357 magnums in their purses, then the preacher might feel a bit intimidated about confronting them on their sins, etc. He’d have his own piece, and would maybe line the pulpit with half inch plate steel.

Only in America.

OK maybe I phrased that a bit harshly. If not faith, then perhaps evidence-deficient reasoning 🙂

Pft. This is no fun. I was all ready with my 2nd amendment arguments.

Instead I’ve got fsmftw, and Alien supporting me, and Jeff suggesting I go volunteer at our local church as muscle.

I should just go troll pro gun over at Pharyngula. That’s bound to bring a fight.

Aren’t churches and other places of worship supposed to be “safegrounds”? Like somewhere to seek shelter from violence…but if the violence is all on the inside then the whole game is changed and why even bother with churches if they are no longer safe, or “holy”?
Well this changes everything… Why go into a church to seek peace and be forgiven for your sins when you’re too busy eyeing the suspicious dude sitting next to you making sure he won’t go crazy, with your hand on the concealed lethal weapon in your suit jacket pocket?

Richard Wade,

Of course, you will get different opinions on how that fits in with the teachings of Jesus depending on who you talk to. I can only assume you know Jesus as a lovey dovey type ;). Pro-defense Christians that want to go armed would quote Luke chapter 22 verses 36-38:

36He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”
“That is enough,” he replied.

If you want to get a bit more edgy or even tongue-in-cheek and use the sermon on the mount, blessed are the meek… thinking you are important enough for God to protect certainly is NOT meek…. or “Blessed are the peacemakers” – CLEARLY a reference to the Colt Peacemaker.

wow what hypocrites lets make peace with MY COLT .45!

Wow, its so strange reading the pro gun comments as a Brit.
Over here, if you carry a gun, the cops shoot you. Thats pretty much it. We have no right to bear arms, only certain people can get away with certain guns (e.g. farmers with shotguns) and concealing a weapon makes you instantly a criminal. Hell i used to have to be very careful with martial arts weapons when i practiced.

I’ve heard all the pro-gun arguements many times from yanks but the fact remains, the culture of widespread firearms ownership results in massive amounts of gun crime. Having people with concealed gun licences who may be entirely responsible is not the problem, the widespread availability of firearms to people who are NOT responsible is. Your murder rate is so far beyond anything in Britain and its pretty much made possible by the huge ease of acquiring a gun(the UK has a murder rate three time lower than in the states). Over here you have to have certain dubious connections to get your hands on a gun and going on a murderous rampage with a cricket bat doesn’t have quite the same lethality.

On the matter of putting guns in churches, i’m finding this hilarious. I seem to remember something about turning the other cheek and loving ones enemies. Shooting someone dead is a pretty wacky definition of christian love.

gribblethemunchkin:
Making all guns illegal all the time in the US is not going to reduce the availability of guns. And besides that, the availability of something and its use is not an indication of that thing’s “power to corrupt,” but rather an indication of underlying problems in individuals or the society as a whole. As I’m sure you’re familiar, Britain is having problems with knife crime at the moment, hence the legislation leading to those ridiculous pictures of dinner knives with “these items restricted to sale to persons of age” warnings.
In addition, the number of “murderous rampages” with firearms in the US are actually quite low; it’s just that they are highly publicized to feed the public’s morbid fascination with such things.
I suppose I’m just of the opinion that instead of blaming inanimate objects (guns, knives, cars, alcohol, etc.), we should shift our focus to the root problem of the mental/emotional/etc. health of the people who would use them for ill and whether these intents are individually or socially based.

Alien, damit, you beat me to the quote. When I read his post, thats the exact passage I was going to post.

gribblethemunchkin, read Thomas Jeffersons writings on the right to bear arms. Its more about a check against power, than a right of self defense. We could have a long discussion, but I would leave you with the misquote of Admiral Ito. The Emperor asked him to attack the Pacific coast of the US. He replied with something like:

“No, I would not land an army on the US. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.”

It’s nice to see there are some people that can address the issue of concealed carry rationally on this board. Odd that so many atheists are reacting so irrationally to it though.

As a Texas CHL holder I can tell you that while some other CHL holders I know are a bit paranoid, they are all well versed in the rules and will not carry where it is illegal nor will they use their weapon unless lethal force is the only option. You can’t even show your weapon as a threat to someone unless you fear for your life and can justifiably use it.

In some states it is illegal to carry in a church. That means that a psycho who wants to kill a bunch of people can go to any local church and open fire without to much risk. That’s why there’s a push to legalize it in many states now, because there have been some random shootings at different churches.

Look into the statistics. People who have a concealed carry license are not criminals, and have used their weapons legally far more often than the rare cases of them using them illegally.

First, I’d like to take issue with the characterization of those who carry concealed weapons as being easily provoked or freaking out. The vast majority of gun owners, and most especially those who have gone through the concealed cary permit process, are responsible and, in fact, less easily provoked when they are carrying because they recognize the awesome responsibility they wield. They typically do not react unnecessarily. To present myself as an example, I have carried a concealed firearm for twenty years. While carrying, I have been insulted, abused, assaulted, menaced, frightened and angered to the point of shaking. In all that time I have only twice even considered using my firearm (both were unprovoked physicals assaults) and only once actually drew my firearm (an unprovoked assault and battery). One presentation in twenty years is not easily provoked.

That having been said, the calls for parishioners to bring their guns to church is, I believe, not entirely motivated by a real concern for safety. When Rev. Fred Rodriguez comments, “The Scripture says we’re living the last days,” he is clearly not talking about the fairly remote risk of an actual crime occurring but is playing up on people’s fears of the apocalypse. When Pastor Ken Pagano of the New Bethel Church in Louisville says “that there was a strong belief in God and firearms — without that this country wouldn’t be here” when calling on his parishioners to celebrate the 4th of July and the 2nd Amendment by bringing their firearms to church (and having a gun raffle and playing patriotic music), he’s not promoting safety or responsibility. He’s promoting a dominionist agenda.

It is when these motivations are added into the concealed firearm mix that I see things getting dicey. These people are not acting out of a rational concern for safety. They are motivated by fear. They are motivated by patriotism. They are motivated by the machinations of their leaders. They are motivated by righteousness. They have ceased thinking and THAT is what makes the situation more dangerous than it could be.

I have no problem with people who have gone through the steps for a legal concealed carry permit. I am nervous, though, about people that conceal a handgun without going through the permitting process. It is these people that may be a little too quick to draw. Especially if motivated by religion, greed, or a grudge.