Would You Allow Your Child to Join the Military?

Yes. While it does outrank the boyscouts. You are still being morally inconsistent.

I would think that IF anyone considers themselves a humanist, or even ethics-driven then it would be inconsistent to serve in the military due to the fact that most (if not all) wars are unethical either in ultimate end or in methods. Usually both.

Well, you have to be 18 to join the military. So you can’t keep your child from joining. Nevertheless, I would strongly discourage any child of mine from joining the military, not just because it is a discriminatory institution, but also because it is a tool of US empire that has very little to do with protecting our nation and a whole lot to do with projecting US power around the world. I would not want my child to risk his or her life to take over Iraq’s oil fields.

Let’s face it: for all the talk about soldiers “defending our freedom,” you can’t actually show me a concrete example of how a soldier, or the Armed Services, actually, literally defends our freedom today. The terrorists never had the power to take our freedom away, nor did Saddam Hussein or any of America’s other enemies.

That doesn’t change the fact that soldiers do make real and selfless sacrifices when they serve, but to me that compounds the tragedy of these sacrifices even further. By now we know that the invasion of Iraq was built on a house of lies, and the soldiers that died there died in vain. It is a terrible tragedy.

So no, I hope that no child I ever have chooses to serve in the military. I would prefer that he or she seeks out service that does not involve killing people and risking being killed.

Mmmm. Bacon.

That side tracked me Josh.

I don’t see it as being morally inconsistent.

The Boy Scouts is a private club, sure they seem like a national entity, but in reality they are just a collection of private clubs. They serve no national purpose. If they become so attached to an anti-atheism/anti-homosexuality agenda that they become marginalized from the larger society, it will not have a drastic effect on the larger US populace.

The US military is directly responsible for the security of the US. If we discourage secularists from joining, then we cede the duty of defending our republic to the theists. That is surely the road to disaster.

If Scouting can be changed from within, then approving your secular childs decision to join could help educate other kids. If the organization is too far gone, then its time to divert your kid to other clubs.

But government, at all levels, must never be ceded to theism. We need to encourage atheists to join in participation at every level of government, even the military.

As previously noted, you can’t prevent your adult child from joining the military. I would encourage my child to seriously consider his/her motivations for wanting to join. I would present my views on the subject, encourage them to do research and come up with a reasoned decision on their own. However they choose at that point, they will have made their choice as an educated, thoughtful, rational adult, which is the best thing I can wish for my children to become.

I can actually taste bacon – thank you not Josh.

I just want to add that I think that all citizens should have to serve (in some capacity – hospitals, mental health, etc), even those with a clown fetish. I wish the military were not necessary, but it is. And for the record, my girls better give it serious consideration too – it ain’t just a boys club anymore.

I think Revyloution and Alan hit it on the head so far. But we’ll see what others have to say…

I don’t think it’s morally inconsistent. Things are not black and white here. If your child wanted to learn, say, archery, and the only organization in your area that taught archery was the Boy Scouts, letting him join for that reason, even while you disapprove of some of their policies, is certainly understandable.

There is only one military in the US. You either join and deal with their rules or don’t join. If the desire to serve your country in that manner is strong enough, it may be more important in your priority list than opposing discriminatory policies.

There are a couple of other issues here, though. First, the question asks if I would allow my child to join the military. That presumes that the child is still of an age where my permission is needed. There is no way in hell I would allow my minor child to leave high school, certainly not to join the military.

But assume that the child is asking for my advice and approval, not permission, and is an adult. I would not be happy with my child joining the military, and I would say so. My reasons have pretty much nothing to do with discriminatory policies, though. I do not like the kind of unquestioned obedience and submission to authority that appears to be fostered by the military, I don’t like the way the military is used symbolically by certain factions in the US as a sort of “might makes right” banner, I am bothered by the emphasis on fighting and warfare, and I am very bothered by the attitude of some that supporting the country means supporting the military.

If someone wants to serve the country, go into municipal government, or join the Peace Corp, or become a school teacher, or something. I don’t automatically admire people who go into the military. It’s a job. There are lots of jobs.

I served 10 years in the military and would whole-heartedly support my son if he wanted to join, if he comes to that decision. If he’s 18 he can make that choice anyway – however, during my time in the service, there was no pressure from the Xian element to pray, go to services, etc.; but things may have changed. I didn’t call myself an atheist when I was in either, I just knew it was all BS and probably tuned any of it out.

Sure, I would allow them. Hell, I am even considering joining the military. Of course, I am Canadian and so the situation might be a little different. Possibly very different.

I am not a pacifist nor a proper “humanist” so I have no ethical problem with military service. Any sovereign nation needs a competent military.

At some point you have to let you child make a decision. With either of these institutions I would clearly state my beliefs about them, but ultimately I would leave the decision up to them. My oldest son has always been an atheist (until he chooses otherwise) yet he has been to church with friends quite a bit over the years. He knows my feelings about churches and religion, but he also knows it’s something I leave up to him. I can only hope that my kids feel comfortable enough to ask me about such issues when they encounter the inevitable ethical quandaries.

Well, although I would never join the military or advise anyone I know to do so (at least in countries like the U.S. where the military typically is the enforcer of foreign policies I find reprehensible), and although I’m a big queer… I’m not sure that it is morally inconsistent.

Almost any moral choice consists of balancing multiple goods, or multiple evils, or both. I think it’s valid to say, “In X case, this evil is not balanced out by the good; in Y case, however, the good is greater than it is in X, and therefore it balances out the evil.” I may not agree with someone’s assessment of these goods and evils… but I don’t think it’s automatically inconsistent to reject a particular evil in some cases and tolerate it in others. I think we all do that. Life is morally complex, and the scales don’t always balance out exactly the same in all cases.

Also: As others have pointed out, the choice for your son to join the military is different from the choice for your son to join the Boy Scouts… because in one case the choice is yours and in the other it’s his. In the Boy Scouts choice, you’d be sending a young child the message that you approve of discrimination, or at least that you tolerate it… and since he’s not making the decision, you’d be teaching him that he should tolerate it, too. In the military decision, your adult son would be making that decision on his own. You can counsel and guide him and share your own opinion of the moral balance scales… but it’s his choice, and his moral balance to strike. You can openly discuss the pros and cons, rather than forcing your own judgment on him.

I don’t have children, so it’s easier said than done, but I would like to think that I would be supportive of the choices my adult children make. I disapprove of the military’s don’t ask, don’t tell policy, as do the enlisted folks I am acquainted with, and have my reservations about combat; however, I accept that a nation needs a military and that there is much to learn from the experience of serving as a soldier. I am uncomfortable with the thought of taking advantage of the protection afforded by our military so long as it’s somebody else’s family members serving. I doubt our nation’s military problems are well addressed by boycotting the military; perhaps I am wrong in this assumption but that’s where I stand at the moment. It would feel self-righteous to say that I won’t have anything to do with the service because of their discrimination, but that it’s alright for a friend’s underprivileged son, for instance, that of course I’m not judging him…

War is a crime committed by the government of one country against the citizens of two countries.

And as Shane points out, having a strong military may lead the government into believing that it is sovereign over the (not ‘its’) citizens. Our founders realized the danger of this, which is why the United States didn’t have a standing army for much of its early history and why the creation of a standing army is unconstitutional (Congress dodges this by periodically “reauthorizing” the army). Unfortunately, right-wingers have fueled the fans of fear and paranoia to the extent that the average citizen now thinks that we’re safer with a military than we would be without.

Note that the military functions by taking the young and impressionable away from their families, grouping them together in communes, and systematically breaking down their wills in order to mold them into fervent believers absolutely loyal and willing to give their lives in the service of a father-figure often identified not by name but by glorious sounding titles such as a “commander in chief.” In other words, it’s a cult.

I’d say that a parent has a moral duty to stop his/her children from joining a cult.

I’d be even less likely to let a child join the military (or army cadets I suppose if we’re talking about an age at which I can still control their actions to some extent). The reason being that both have abhorrently discriminatory policies but only one is involved in the business of killing. Compared to the destruction and suffering caused by wars, homophobia seems a mere trifle.

When they are old enough to join the military, they are outside of your power to control (if you ever could).
Strongly disagree with them, yes. I am afraid that choices children make once they are on-their-own are choices/mistakes that they have to make for themselves.

Real life is far more complex than a formal logic system where you can have internal consistency. Life is messy. Life is full of contradictions and inconsistencies.

I see no fundamental problem with taking one stance for scouts and a different stance for the military.

I do have a higher standard, though, for passing laws that others must adhere to.

If they are 18 they can make the decision for themselves, but otherwise I would adamantly encourage them to refuse military service. As a practicer of non-violence, for me it is a moral issue for me and I find it absolutely unjustifiable.

I greatly discouraged my kids from joining the ‘military’ although my daughter did join the navy.
Her adventures with ‘navy misogyny’ are a riot but that’s another story.
I was in the USAF for 20yrs and I did so because there was NO WAY I was going into the ‘military’ during Vietnam. I was never shunned because of my athiestism and in fact had great discussions with a number of Unitarians. But the reason I tried to get my kid into the USAF is because it IS NOT REALLY military. In the military you train very hard so some political hack can order you to take the hill. You die, he gets promoted…Bull Shit!!!!
In the USAF you train very hard to get the aircraft flying so some political hack can shoot stuff. I live, He?????

I’ll join the real military-(kidding too old)- when the political hack gets out in front and leads me up that hill…if it is so damned important!!
So I discouraged my kids from joining…I will discourage my GrandKids.
If they show interest I will try to get them into the more intellectual USAF, Yes other services have their intellectual parts too but they tend to go to the ‘bullets flying’ places too.

WWI & WWII could be considered a real war, MAYBE Korea, BUT NOT ANYTHING since then. If this country is actually attacked by a force I will be out there shooting back.

I served in the Navy during the cold war and desert storm. Sundays were particularly bad for Atheists in boot camp. Sailors who refused to attend church services, such as myself, had to clean the barracks, while the christians received refreshments and snacks at church. This rewarded attendance and punished those who did not while pointing out who the non-believers were for harassment.

I suggest the peace corps.

I wouldn’t disallow my kids to do anything if they are over 18. I can give reasons why I may personally agree or disagree with military service, but I would hope by the time my child reaches adulthood he/she would recognize that my job as a parent isn’t to make moral decisions for them.

So essentially you are asking us what we think about military service. I may disagree with the discrimination in the military, but that doesn’t mean anyone who joins the military agrees with the policies of the institution as a whole and should be seen as a monolithic block. For exmaple, the California Constitution now prohibits gay marriage, but that wouldn’t prevent me from working as a public official at city hall.

Since s/he’d be an adult I couldn’t forbid it. However I’d make it plain I considered it a bad idea. Not only is the military a blatantly discriminatory organization (DADT and the increasing issues with evangelical Christianity taking over, for example) but I am a conscientious objector as well. I simply don’t approve of harming and/or killing unless it’s completely unavoidable (primarily self-defense in acute situations).

That’s a good question. As mentioned above, it wouldn’t really be my place to tell my adult child whether he/she can join the military. But would I approve of it?

Quite possibly. In my observation, there is a difference between joining the Boy Scouts and the military. Generally, a child wishes to join the Boy Scouts for his own enjoyment, whereas a young man or woman chooses to join the military for the benefit of others.

But if my child was interested in joining an organization for the benefit of other people, the military would not be my top choice. I would suggest one of the organizations who help other countries without request of reciprocation, not blow them up and then “rebuild” in exchange for billions of dollars of debt.

This will not be a problem for me, for any children I birth will be locked up in a closet as soon as they hit 18. However, if I did let them out, I would say that disallowing a adult child (and let’s face facts- not all 18 year olds cut the apron strings and parents can control their kids long after they reach the age of majority) is not a matter of one policy the military has. One has to consider many different, complex issues before making either choice- I might not want a kid to join the Boy Scouts, because they are morons- on the other hand, if the kid lives in one of those really small towns, that might be the only option available for socializing. The army is infinitely more complex.

Yes, I am a veteran and was openly libral and atheist while I served. I felt much more comfertable about being an atheist in the military than I do in the civilian world. I encourage everyone to join and serve. It is much easier to discrimnate against a quiet minority than against a vocal majority. The religious realized that if their kids joined the military they could gain power. If we want to be a part of this country we have to be a part of all of it’s important institutions. Military service is a good place to start. Then we can parlay that service into other positions of power and influence.

Since my hypothetical child would be an adult the decision wouldn’t be mine to make. My brother and his wife are in the Air Force and DADT really bothers me but as other’s have said the military has it’s flaws but it’s the only one we’ve got and it’s role is pretty important.

As for being an atheist in the military (or any minority religion). The problem isn’t the military but some believers in the military who think it’s okay to disobey military rules when it’s against people who don’t believe as they do. The military needs to do a better job enforcing their own policies on this as well as atheists not keeping quiet about it.

Brent,

Which leads me to my opinion on the moral inconsistency of this issue. I think saying yes to the military is only as morally inconsistent as remaining an American citizen or a resident of California, since they both have policies that discriminate against homosexuals

Well said.

Thanks for all the well thought out and reasoned comments. I really appreciate them.

Seems to be a lot of Navy vets (including myself) reading FA which I find interesting. And oddly, as Gabriel pointed out, the military can be equally welcoming to those who are different (skin color, religion, etc) while at the same time pushing the Christian agenda in subtle ways. It’s very odd – but in many respects the military is more socially advanced than ‘out here.’

In my opinion, I’m not sure not wanting someone to not join the military equates to being un-American – I rode my motorcycle into work today against the wishes of my family and I don’t think they are anti-motorcyclists. They just don’t want me to get hurt. And really, varying opinions is what we vets/active duty folks fight to protect in America. When not occupying other countries and such…

Have a great weekend everyone…

I don’t Know if anyone is still reading this thread but I am actually in the field right now serving in the military (US). My parents had severe reservations about me joining the military. As a headstrong non-believer liberal they feared I would be miserable and spend my time getting oppressed and discriminated against. That was compounded by the fact that I decided to be an enlisted ground pounder instead of going to college as planned. But like so many have already said I was an adult and it was the path I chose, and even then I hoped to make good changes from the inside.

7 years later I have been deploying back to back since 2003 and I can honestly say I have never run into any of the problems that I hear so much about. It may have to do that I am in a somewhat more specialized career but through 3 units religion has ALWAYS been a very private and personal issue for everyone. How good you are at your job makes or breaks you here, and half the religious people I worked with last tour I didn’t even know until halfway though because I was too busy sleeping in on Sunday. In boot camp I spent Sunday mornings writing letters home not doing extra work. I have never seen any abuses overseas, Prostletizing, or undue violence. I attribute those problems to ONE thing, and that is poor leadership. I’m not going to claim that I stopped it from happening, but I can say I have been a good influence in all my teams. I can also tell you with the utmost certainty that if I ever catch anyone trying to pass out bibles, doing something inhuman to another human being on a patrol I will put a stop to it immediately. I see these stories about innocent people being shot, bibles being passed out, etc and sometimes I wonder if i’m getting the whole story. EVERY time I think “where were their Sergeants?” Because I can tell you what if I was there I would have lost my S*** and any violator would be fired and sent to the rear so fast his head would spin.

With all that in mind I will reiterate what a few here have said already. The military (and polotics, police, courts, etc, etc) need to be more representative of our country as a whole. The only way that is going to happen is if we get involved and take an active part. with so many liberals, free-thinkers and atheists avoiding service (not just military) we really are leaving it to the uneducated, overly-religious, overly-aggressive population. Even with the lack of stereotypical problems I’ve encountered most people I have worked with are fox-news loving conservatives. I can count the left leaning educated people on my fingers and toes. I respect and love all my co-workers but only in an environment like this can a middle of the road liberal such as myself be called a “tree hugging hippie”. that should make you all stop and think.

One more note before I sign off. Like I said religion is private here at work. But consider how I described how conservative my co-workers are, then realize that anyone here that knows me well at all or for any period of time knows what I believe. I’m not “Out” but I don’t hide it either. But reading through some of the comments on this post and their blatant anti-American(assuming those posters are american) and anti-military nature kind of adds to the worry in my gut. the worry that is why I am not “out” at a larger scale and have not been to a local humanist meeting. Not because I fear being rejected at work, but because I fear being rejected in the larger humanist community due to peoples secondary beliefs.

Sorry for the long comment but seeing this title on my phones RSS feed I knew it would hit a nerve.

Since there are vets etc. on this thread, I should point out that I understand that they think they’re keeping the US safe. It’s possible this is true, at least sometimes – that’s a very complex issue. I certainly don’t think the vast majority of people in the military like killing people or anything. However, you have to admit that the point of the military is to keep the US safe by killing people. The State Department, etc., are the ones who try to keep us safe by other means.

I don’t think the following orders unquestioningly bit is very arguable. Again I see how you could support it, for the sake of efficiency etc., but it’s antithetical to everything I stand for.

So I get upset when everyone, everyone, left, right, and center, always has to say that we support the troops. I don’t. I support them as people. I support their civil rights, I respect them as people, etc. But I certainly don’t support them as troops. I disagree with their choice of profession. They are hitmen. Hitmen for a good cause perhaps (sometimes, anyway), but hitmen nonetheless. How do they reconcile this ethically?

Charon,

Since there are vets etc. on this thread, I should point out that I understand that they think they’re keeping the US safe. It’s possible this is true, at least sometimes – that’s a very complex issue. I certainly don’t think the vast majority of people in the military like killing people or anything. However, you have to admit that the point of the military is to keep the US safe by killing people. The State Department, etc., are the ones who try to keep us safe by other means.

I don’t think the following orders unquestioningly bit is very arguable. Again I see how you could support it, for the sake of efficiency etc., but it’s antithetical to everything I stand for.

So I get upset when everyone, everyone, left, right, and center, always has to say that we support the troops. I don’t. I support them as people. I support their civil rights, I respect them as people, etc. But I certainly don’t support them as troops. I disagree with their choice of profession. They are hitmen. Hitmen for a good cause perhaps (sometimes, anyway), but hitmen nonetheless. How do they reconcile this ethically?

I think you might misunderstand what people do in the military. I served in a war zone twice and served in two branches. I was never asked to kill anyone, nor was it assumed that I needed to. Sure, I was asked to fix aircraft and set up communications, but never kill. Now there are certain jobs the military that do require you to kill, if you look you will find that they are in the minority.

I also think you do not understand how the military protects this country. Imagine a police force with no guns, tickets or ability to arrest. How effective would the police be? Same with the State Department. Words only go so far and violence is sadly a necessity sometimes. And without any deterent from attack, we would be open to any force that wanted to take over.

I find your last paragraph pretty offensive. It is made out of ignorance. I would suggest you look into what different types of jobs there are in the military. The vast majority of them have civilian counterparts, and very few are focused on killing. The military is an easy target, and many take a shot at it, yet forget or even praise other professions that do harm to people.

I won’t call you un-American, just ignorant on the military. I am glad that you can exercise your free speech though, even if it is used to slander the people that defended that right.

“Unfortunately, right-wingers have fueled the fans of fear and paranoia to the extent that the average citizen now thinks that we’re safer with a military than we would be without.” — Miko

If you have money and no weapon and Joe Blow has a weapon but no money, who do you think is safer? Remember, robbery victims often get shot after turning over the dough [cf. Czechoslovakia, 1938-39 — or Kuwait, 1990].

And Chakolate, there is indeed a moral responsibility on non-combatants as well. I served as a fire-fighter in Desert Storm, and consoled myself with the fact that I didn’t kill anyone. Then I started thinking, regs require fire trucks for air ops, so them B52s, why, I was helping them drop bombs. Knowing that I helped kill people over oil is one reason I didn’t re-up.

There are times when war is morally justifiable. Those times are very very rare.

I was a US Marine infantryman and came away from the experience an atheist.

I think to me it goes like this.

I cannot wait for the day when homosexuality is punishable. I cannot wait for the day when religious preference leads to understanding rather than being outcasted.

Those days may happen soon, or they may not. But in order to arrive at that day, people will need to serve America in a military capacity. My family has been involved with the military at least since the civil war, and I’ve been proud of my service and my family’s. While it is disappointing that everyone can not serve, the fact of the matter is that someone has to serve. If I am the stopgap for that, the humanist that supports the changing policy, so be it.