Atheist vs. Starbucks Barista

Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

You could have asked for an A-COFFEE.
“So you don’t want a coffee?”
“No, I want an a-coffee! An a-coffee is a coffee as the others”
“It’s an empty cup?”
“Yes. And I will pay you with a-money…”

I think the best way to handle this is by asking probing questions to get to the root causes of the persons thinking. Maybe an extra 5 minutes (if you have the time) to listen and question would have clarified the misconception. Personally, I have found that a question is the best way to get someone to think for themselves.

@ubi dubious: very nice!

Heh, recently someone claimed that Richard Dawkins was a prophet.

Two things I would have pointed out. 1, atheism to religion is baldness to a hair colour. Second, religion implies the belief in the supernatural.

I wish atheism was a religion, then i could get tax breaks out of it as well as a special standing under the law making me above criticism.

Seriously? This has to be one of the most annoying things that I keep getting told. Atheism has no prayer, doesn’t require you to come to church, to do anything at all.

If you don’t believe in a god, your an atheist, full stop, end of. How anyone thinks it is a religion is beyond me, it shares virtually none of them!

From the childish attitude of the barista, it seems the best response might be “Nuh-uh, poopyhead.”

I have no idea how else to respond to that.

I think you can be creative and think up new variations on the stamp collecting example.

I sometimes use:
If atheism is a religion then NOT beating your wife is domestic violence.

If atheism is a religion then NOT beating your children is child abuse.

“I wouldn’t be surprised if you guys met regularly and had sermons. You do, don’t you?”
“Why yes, we have them right next-door to the non-stampcollectors’ trade fair.”

“What can you say to the person that could actually be effective?”

If the person is religious, nothing.

To further that, I always find it quite humorous if the person is religious and erupts in such a fashion because they are essentially saying, “Well you’re no better than WE are!” This is, of course, quite comical.

It’s the same line of thinking they employ when they trot out Stalin and talk about atheist dictators and mass killings. “You’re killing people by the thousands as well! I guess we are quite similar!” Trying to explain morales and ethics after this is moot because we all know Yahweh has the monopoly on those.

If the person is on the fence about religion, possibly believes in a personal god but has done away with the trappings of organized religion, it’s best to do what you did and just request your beverage. This individual is hopefully leading a rather benign existence and their personal god doesn’t exert influence through them into the physical realm.

I can’t see many athiests responding the way this barrista did unless they belong to the contingent that believes the athiest movement should keep to itself and not be so outspoken as to avoid a polarizing effect. From his attitude, I don’t think this is the case.

Did anyone hear the Logically Critical podcast on atheism? The host gave the analogy that atheists worship the Grinch.

Perhaps, Daryl could have just brushed the barista aside and agree by adding that “yeah at atheist church we sing exhalations and prayers to the Grinch.”

He’s standing in line anyway and he’s not going to have much time to define terms. If the barista is paying attention perhaps it will sit in her mind to be worked out later with an “oh yeah” moment.

It’s just not possible to have a conversation with someone that doesn’t listen.

Don’t wear the pin if you can’t handle the heat.

Hoverfrog has nailed it. I don’t mind the discussion…as long as the coffee is forthcoming. The second the Barista pauses in his coffee making activities in favour of arguing with a customer (good naturedly or otherwise) he needs to be reprimanded.

“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

the a-coffee idea actually backfires on people who are creating a positive identity out of not believing something. there’s little need for people who don’t drink coffee to go to non- or anti-coffee shops where everyone sits around talking about why they don’t drink coffee.

so should they be wearing a-coffee t-shirts?

(though I must say I’m all for the “out” campaign as a temporary phenomenon aimed at creating a public voice and confidence for non-theists of all sorts.)

Barista: No — not at all. The buses?! What about the buses! With those signs… You guys are proselytizing now. I wouldn’t be surprised if you guys met regularly and had sermons. You do, don’t you?
Me: Do you know any atheists really well?
Barista: No…
Me: Do I know you really well?
Barista: No…
Me: And am I telling you all about what you think, what you feel and what you do?
Barista: No…
Me: That’s right. Because pretending you know all about someone else instead of respectfully asking them about themselves is how you stay ignorant.
Barista: …
Me: Leave plenty of room in the cup for sugar. Your coffee tastes like ear wax.

What the fark is a Barista? Is that a French word meaning ‘coffee making douchebag’?

Ditto to what Vic said.

So, there are the two sides of being an out athiest. It feels good to be “out” but then you have to deal with complete morons. It is his right to wear the shirt, but the very nature of the shirt becomes a conversation starter. And some conversations are better left un-started. It is a tricky one!

“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

LOL @ ShavenYak

Why say in anything in response to this? Calling atheism a “religion” doesn’t make anyone’s belief or non-belief more valid. It’s not an argument, it’s a label. I suspect it’s a sort of self-assurance: if the prospect of somebody living a quality life without religion is threatening to someone who needs religion (i.e., “What’s wrong with me that I need religion while others don’t?”) they just call atheism a religion, and, suddenly, the atheist is not somebody who is “better” or “stronger” or “smarter” than you; they’re just somebody with a different “religion”.

Which isn’t to say that atheists are somehow better or smarter or stronger than theists. But I think it’s a notion that exists and that some people feel the need to defend themselves from somehow.

If somebody were to tell me that Atheism is a “religion”, I’d probably say something along the lines of “OK. Whatever floats your boat. Call it what you like.” Then you can cut off a pointless argument of semantics while subtly(?) pointing out that other people’s labels don’t affect you, which I would imagine is a good example to set for somebody who feels the need to label other people’s worldviews.

You don’t have to agree with somebody to have a polite conversation with them — but you do have to agree to have the SAME conversation. Coffee Guy had an idea for a different conversation than the one you wanted to have. He wanted to have the one that would allow him to remain ignorant.

There is often help for the clueless. The clue RESISTANT are another story. When someone values and defends their ignorance, it’s best to walk away.

I get this all the time actually. Here is a quick stfu to use when they call atheism a religion.

Random person: Atheism is a religion.
Me: No.
Random Person: Uh huh!
Me: Call it what you like, but it a rejection of dangerous supernatural nonsense. If you want to call not believing something a religion, go ahead but thats kind of oxymoronic.

Something to that effect either offends them enough or bores them enough that they leave it alone, or if they tuned into the subject enough it may actually spark a substantive conversation. Either way it ends the one dimensional deadlock

I’d have gone with:

“Perhaps so, but at least our followers don’t run around killing people they don’t agree with. Can I have my fucking coffee now?”

But I’m kind of a jerk.

Also, @Paul Lundgren, that’s a wonderful idea and I am going to start suggesting it.

Maybe he should have simply invited the barista to come join his church.

“Atheism most certainly isn’t a religion, but the stamp collecting analogy breaks down pretty quickly.”

I don’t think so. If stamp collectors were obsessed with compelling everyone else to collect stamps and insisted that people who don’t collect stamps are stamp collectors, you’d probably find a lot of books written by non collectors about why they choose to not collect stamps, and why not collecting them isn’t a hobby.

Analogies always break down at some point anyway, otherwise they’d be exactogies.

@AJ: sounds like you’ve missed the point. The non-stamp-collecting example doesn’t try to equate stamp-collecting with religion. It just serves to point out why the lack of religion doesn’t make atheism a religion: if atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby and bald is a hair color.

But if your hypothetical religious person would really give that response, you could easily counter with something like this:
“You’d see many books about the virtues of non-stamp-collecting if stamp-collectors expected everyone to collect stamps. You’d see non-stamp-collecting support groups if non-stamp-collectors would be demonized by many stamp-collectors.” You get the idea, I’m sure you can think of many more.

Turn the conversation around by asking a question.

Yes, the stupidity of others should dictate our behavior; spectacular advice. And there wasn’t any pin in this story, in any case.

The customer was wearing an atheist T-shirt, he has to expect that people may question him about it (just as with any other message display like a bumper sticker or silicone wrist band). The barrista’s questioning was inappropriate given the customer-clerk relationship but if we were to take the conversation to a bus stop for instance it would not have been.

Get your coffee at an independent coffee house. I’ve found their baristas to be more free-thinking — perhaps its the absence of corporate conformity. Beyond that, ask a few questions; make some of the above stated observations and enjoy your coffee.

I’ve sarcastically told theist friends that the “only” difference between what atheists are doing and “other” religions is that atheism doesn’t involve belief in god(s), prayer, churches or temples, holy books or scriptures, priests or religious leaders, belief in the supernatural, miracles, an afterlife, holy wars, heaven or hell, lifestyle restrictions, belief without evidence (faith as a virtue), belief despite conflicting evidence, supernatural origins of the universe or humans, murderous fundamentalist extremists, annoying doorstep preachers, the soul, regular ceremonies or acts of worship, sin, a concept of blasphemy, or the idea of being God’s chosen people.

But other than those things, I guess it’s just like a religion because some atheists are passionate about their ideas and wish more people knew about them.

I got that list of differences from this website: http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/atheismreligion.html

sc0tt Says: The barrista’s questioning was inappropriate given the customer-clerk relationship but if we were to take the conversation to a bus stop for instance it would not have been. I disagree. At a small town or neighborhood business it is quite common for they customer/clerk relationship to also entail casual conversation and evolve into friendship. At slow times in even large businesses, this can happen as well.

Well there are movies based on books that are advertised on buses…RELIGION!

The customer was wearing an atheist T-shirt, he has to expect that people may question him about it (just as with any other message display like a bumper sticker or silicone wrist band)

Obviously; no where is it so much as implied that the customer expected otherwise, which makes the comment to which I was referring all the more idiotic.

I’m really not sure what you were going for with your comment, or why you quoted me.

Typically I’d say, “If you’re good perhaps Santa will bring you a dictionary for Christmas this year.”

Barista: WHAT?! You guys are as much a religion as any other religion!
Me: you say that like you think religion is a bad thing.

…..

Barista: No — not at all. The buses?! What about the buses! With those signs… You guys are proselytizing now.
Me: I saw a Starbucks ad the other day. You guys into proselytizing too?

…

You’re right: there isn’t really a good way to have this conversation. But keeping calm is at least way better than giving a heated response.

@ Todd, I love the argument clinic sketch. It’s brilliant.

Barista: No — not at all. The buses?! What about the buses! With those signs… You guys are proselytizing now. I wouldn’t be surprised if you guys met regularly and had sermons. You do, don’t you?
Darryl: No. Tall dark-roast, please. I didn’t expect the Spanish Inquisition.
[JARRING CHORD]. [The cardinals burst in]
Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

I don’t get it…how is being an atheist, or meeting with other atheists in a “group” setting proselytizing? Wouldn’t then a chess group or a homeowners association be the same thing? People gathering because they want to discuss the same ideas? It’s only when you start adding invisible men who control our lives that it gets a little fuzzy…

Using jynnan_tonnyx’ approach:
Barista: WHAT?! You guys are as much a religion as any other religion!
Me: Oh, are you trying to bring atheism DOWN to the level of religion, like that’s a bad thing? You should be careful, some religious people around here might take offense to that.

Using Miko’s approach with George Orwell’s ideas:
Barista: WHAT?! You guys are as much a religion as any other religion!
Me: That’s not your original idea, is it? You heard that from someone else, right? That idea is designed to keep you from making friends with any atheists, and guess what? It’s working.

One more:
If Atheism is a religion, then my not putting any money into that “tips” mug on the counter is giving you a tip.

None of these would work. The barista is clearly a moron, but it would be fun to try them.

The “Atheism is just as much a religion too” meme has become so common that we might as well call it a religion, too.

A t-shirt and a bus ad doesn’t exactly constitute proselytizing. And since when is proselytizing a sufficient or necessary condition for religion?

But if it did then attorney Ken Nugent must be the friggin’ pope of Atlanta lawyers. You can’t throw a brick in this town w/o hitting one of his ads* “One call, that’s all.”

Come to think of it, he did have a TV ad where he was wielding lighting to stop an auto accident. That was very Thor-like or Zeusian of him.

*Note to self, stop throwing bricks, it’s how our TV got broke and my arms are getting really sore.

I don’t get it…how is being an atheist, or meeting with other atheists in a “group” setting proselytizing?

No one said that either of these things were; Baristard* was clearly referring to the bus ads as “proselytizing.”

*Taking Indigo’s point, I’ll note that I am referring to this particular Barista, and not Baristas in general, many of whom I’m sure are Baristastic.

* “Last time I checked, it says Starbucks Coffee on the sign, not Church Of Starbucks.”

hehehe
I used to meet my best friend at the “Church of Starbucks” regularly during highschool. She was catholic and was only allowed out on weekday evenings if she was going to mass, so she’d call me up and ask if I wanted to meet her at “church”.

Don’t wear the pin if you can’t handle the heat.

I’m really not sure what you were going for with your comment, or why you quoted me.

I assumed the “pin” in the earlier post (by K) you quoted was a metaphor for a label similar to the way the shirt was a label, and you said there was no pin. My point was that K had a point.

Maybe I missed the meaning of the pin metaphor, haven’t heard that expression before.

@Anne: yes, the barista should have taken his word for it. The arrogance was precisely in assuming she knew better what atheism is than the atheist himself. The barista doesn’t need to shut up, as far as I’m concerned, but it might be nice if she had let Darryl finish his explanation. It sounds to me like Darryl would have been more than happy to correct the barista, but she didn’t really let him, did she?

Anne said:

Uh, I didn’t see any arrogant Xian in this story. I saw someone who had an ignorant opinion which the atheist in this story had the opportunity to correct. In fact, if anyone was arrogant, it was the atheist who thought the person behind the counter should just take his word for it and shut up.

I’ve got to think very few minds were ever changed by snappy one-liners.

If you’re not willing to have discussions about your beliefs with people of different beliefs, then why bother wearing the fucking t-shirt?

I agree the Barista wasn’t professing Christianity, and was rather ignorant and certainly very rude. However this is a situation of being at the front line of a Starbucks, assuming it’s busy as I’ve certainly never seen an empty one, and being callously challanged by someone who doesn’t know there’s a time and place for such discussions. In this situation, a few quips are useful. You can’t expect to have a religious debate at the front of a line at a busy coffee house. The Barista didn’t really offer a chance for any kind of correction; already cemented on the idea that atheism is a religion.

I don’t believe Darryl behaved arrogantly at all. Perhaps next time Darryl should offer the opportunity to discuss it further at a more appropriate time and place. Yet considering who he was dealing with; would anyone have invited that person to a meeting of minds?

AJ:

bus ads, shirts, and groups
do not non-stamp-collecting
a religion make
.~.

Idaho Bob (and anyone else) you have my permission to use that response if you want to. As I wrote, I derived it from another source myself, so that author deserves the credit.

Another response I’ve used before in a situation similar to this original post:

atheist: a person without a belief in the existence of gods

aleprechaunist: a person without a belief in the existence of leprechauns

If a theist claims that atheism is a religion to which he himself does not belong, then he must agree that aleprechaunism is a religion to which he does belong (unless he happens to believe in both gods and leprechauns).

atom, I know it’s a long thread, but if you read through the above, you’ll see that that paltry criticism has already been addressed by several different commenters.

Ah, my first double-post! I got an error the first time, I swear…

I think it is very telling that the term “Religion” is being used as a sort of insult.

It’s like a bucket of religious crabs who spy an atheist crab on the rim of the bucket. They all have to pull the atheist crab down to their own level.

I would ask, “Why are you using the term ‘religion’ in an insulting and derogatory manner? Are you an atheist? Non-religious? Or do you just not take religion very seriously?”

When a religious person tries to frame atheism as “just another religion” – this says more about their own disdain toward religions.