What Kind of Person Would Kill Abortion Doctor George Tiller?

There’s a passage in Richard Dawkins‘ The God Delusion that discusses morality:

Five patients in a hospital are dying, each with a different organ failing. Each would be saved if a donor could be found for their particular faulty organ, but none is available. Then the surgeon notices that there is a healthy man in the waiting-room, all five of whose organs are in good working order and suitable for transplanting. In this case, almost nobody can be found who is prepared to say that the moral act is to kill the one to save the five.

At face value, it almost makes sense to say it’s more moral to save five lives instead of one. Like Dawkins says, however, finding someone who agrees with that idea is not likely. Nobody would say it makes sense to kill the healthy person.

Almost nobody.

I have a feeling it was one of those kinds of people who killed abortion doctor George Tiller this morning.

Someone whose warped mind believes that it’s more moral to kill the one person (Tiller) to save the lives of hundreds (unborn children). Someone who can rationalize calling himself “pro-life” even after murdering someone.

By the way, the only pro-life organization that has put out any sort of public statement is Operation Rescue (Update: other groups have now released statements as well). Their site is down at the moment, but Kristjan Wager at Pro-Science caught a screenshot of the Operation Rescue website before it went down.

At the lower right hand corner is a picture of Tiller with the label “Doctor of Death.”

Over the next day or two, you’ll see all the pro-life groups putting out similar statements — that they had absolutely nothing to do with the murder. They didn’t pull the trigger, but it’s the mindset they put people in that is the problem here. When one of their followers snaps, people like Tiller get killed.

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Leny

I hate to tell you…but people from BOTH “sides” snap. I would hate to think that we are so silly that we would allow what ONE person does to represent a group as a whole.
SarahH

I’m glad someone caught that screenshot. It’s sick, the way some “pro-life” groups equate abortion with murder, using tactics intended to horrify people with gore, and then quickly denounce this sort of thing. By their logic, by the logic of anyone who equates abortion with murder, this was justifiable homicide, as it was preventing inevitable “murders” by their standards.

Calling even a late-term abortion a “murder” and using tactics that are calculated to make people angry about it makes the pro-life groups who engage in those activities a clear factor in actual murders – like that of Dr. Tiller.
medussa

I used to battle Operation Rescue every weekend at the clinics here in the area, to (literally) keep the doors open for the women who had (legal) appointments, as Operation Rescue would chain the doors shut and harass the patients, calling them murderers and whores.
“Peaceful and legal means”, what self righteous history-rewriting BS.

And yes, people on both sides snap, but how many anti-abortionists have been killed by pro-choicers?
There’s a real difference between snapping and killing, and OR’s tactics definitely advocate stopping abortion AT ALL COSTS. This is the fall out.
Richard Wade

“What kind of person would kill abortion Doctor George Tiller?”

A person who has for a lifetime been fed a diet of “absolute truth and absolute certainty,” from a source of “perfect, divine and inerrant knowledge,” and as a result has come to think that he is beyond doubt and beyond error.

Beware anyone who spells “Truth” with a capital “T.” This tragedy is only a tiny example of what they are capable of doing.
Tim D.

Just to show that people who think like that DO exist, here’s a quote from crossexamined.org’s blog comments section:

The Dr goes to church on Sunday and then on Monday does late-term abortions. Go figure.
Whoever killed the Dr will pay for it. I guess you can say both will.

Nobody on the so-called “pro-life” side seems very distraught about the fact that somebody was murdered. I guess to them, it’s justifiable if that person’s actions go against your political beliefs.
Tim D.

P.S. Follow up:

I think it’s funny (read: sad) that the kind of people who say things about this abortion guy, who act like they think he deserved it (even though they won’t come out and actually say as much), are the same people who were complaining that guys like Bill Maher were “making fun” of Jerry Falwell the day he finally died.
Frik

I think that you miss the boat. As a former pro-life activist, I know that most pro-life people do not rejoice at an abortion doctor’s murder. For example, one of my facebook friends who works at a pro-life organization was praying for his soul, and saying that only Jesus could judge Dr. Tiller. These people believe that only God can decide when to take life, and thus reject the idea that abortion doctors should be murdered.

Blaming pro-lifers for the murder of an abortion doctor is like blaming atheists for the crimes of a godless dictator.

We shouldn’t fall into the trap of judging the majority of pro-lifers because of a few fanatics.

For example, would it be fair to blame animal rights people for the excesses of the earth liberation front?

I don’t think so.
Miko

The moral philosophy Dawkins is criticizing in that passage is Utilitarianism. The moral philosophy that leads to murdering abortion doctors is Supernatural Deontologism.

Both are worthy of criticism, but the two have nothing in common.
Miko

Nobody on the so-called “pro-life” side seems very distraught about the fact that somebody was murdered. I guess to them, it’s justifiable if that person’s actions go against your political beliefs.

No, this clearly goes way beyond politics. For comparison, when was the last time you heard about someone getting murdered over their views on the capital gains tax? This has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with the delusional certainty that one has Jesus’ cell phone number (metaphorically speaking).
PrimeNumbers

The thought of abortion sickens me. The thought of someone desperately wanting an abortion, and not having legal access to one, and either attempting it themselves or getting it done “somewhere” and ending up dead because of that sickens me more.

It is vital that women have safe access to abortion. I just wish they’d never want to or have to use it. I’d always hope there’s an alternative for them, some way they can not have to abort.
Jason

Leny, how can you say BOTH sides snap? When was the last time you heard of a Pro-Choice activist killing a Pro-Life activist? Can you give me an example of how “both sides snap”?
Warren Falk

Your moral analogy is wrong, I’m afraid. If the Dawkins’ hypothetical man had knowingly, with poison, caused the failings of the other patients’ organs, the question becomes much harder and I think it would be easy to find many who would not think it immoral to kill him to save them. (i.e. In the eyes of the doctor’s murderer, he was not innocent like Dawkins’ patient)

What makes the case with the doctor’s murder despicable is that fetuses are not babies, and not even most pro-lifers quite think of them as though they are despite their rhetoric. If they did, they would have little problem with the murder of the doctor, as also would very few pro-choicers, even, if the doctor were actually killing little kids.
Jason

Frik, that is one of the most ignorant things I’ve ever read!! You compare godless dictators to pro-life activists? Are you serious? Look, when a godless dictator comes to power, the atheists don’t say “Well I agree with his worldview, I just wish he didn’t kill so many people” No, when a dictator like Idi Amin is in power, atheists don’t silently support him. But pro-life “believers” enable these nutjobs that kill doctors. They say “well…we don’t think they should be killed but what they do (i.e perform abortions) is wrong. They kill the unborn, now I wouldn’t kill them for this but…” Wake up!!! As long as Christian dogma is against abortion rights, there will always be someone willing to kill for that dogma because they believe it is “God’s will” and the other Christians just look the other way.
Jeff

Why doesn’t the pro-life camp call God a murderer whenever a woman has a miscarriage?

The wackos should take their guns and try to shoot the Sky Daddy.
desmond

His death made my day.

In fact, there’s a defense fund already started for whoever is suspected of eliminating this threat to the unborn today. I’ve already contributed $1000 and this friday on pay-day, I plan on sending another grand.
Frik

Jason, of course you agree with an atheist’s godless worldview, just not the fact that he is a dictator. It can be argued that the atheists of the world, with their godless ideology, enable the extremists to do the damage that comes from a worldview that is not grounded in a transcendent being.
Frik

And how many atheists just look the other way at a godless regime that slaughters their citizens? Several atheists take no account of the danger of tearing down religious morality, but not building up a constructive and moral worldview.

There may not be a god, but that doesn’t mean that all things are permissible.
gmcfly

Frik, atheists are not trying to tear down morality. Atheists teach their children right from wrong. Schools still teach about sharing, fairness, contributing to society, the horrors of the Holocaust, championing the little guy, responsibility, etc. We still appreciate people who do the right thing.

Atheists don’t teach that “all things are permissible.” I think that’s a quote from Paul in your Bible.

We just disagree on these little side issues like what to do on the Sabbath, whether to approve of the gay couple down the street, and whether abortion should or should not occur. None of these are going to vastly alter the fate of the universe.

So don’t insult us by calling us immoral just because we have different opinions on these minor issues than you do.
Frik

So don’t insult us by calling us immoral just because we have different opinions on these minor issues than you do.

I am not calling you immoral. I am just saying that among many atheist groups that there is too much of an emphasis to tear down without building up.

I am not a Christian. Rather, I am frustrated by the knee-jerk tendency among atheists to support every liberal cause, including late term abortion rights.

Not all atheists are pro-choice. And I can’t in good conscience sit here and witness the apotheosis of George Tiller for performing abortions after the date of viability.
DAM10N

What kind of person? One with an adorable Jesus fish logo on his car:
http://agnostichicagokie.blogspot.com/2009/05/domestic-terrorist-suspect-sports-jesus.html
LFA

I’ve donated $100 to the Planned Parenthood Federation of America in memory of Dr. George Tiller, and I hope like-minded atheists and theists who believe in a woman’s self-determination might do the same.
DAM10N

Not all atheists are pro-choice. And I can’t in good conscience sit here and witness the apotheosis of George Tiller for performing abortions after the date of viability.

I agree completely, but I doubt this is a good time for a nuanced argument about ethical line drawing between the points of viability and birth. Should acts of terrorism provoke serious and widespread debate over the very issues that the terrorists were hoping to bring to the fore?

Nonetheless, this incident speaks volumes about the radical right wing, as does the not-too-terribly-subdued celebration in some circles. It is the natural conclusion to the logic of the “abortion is murder” mantra which we’ve heard from pulpits and pundits.

Like 9-11, this act of terrorism was a faith-based initiative, rooted in the idea that the laws of god supersede the laws of men.
gwen

I’m sorry ‘Frik’, did you say that you were a doctor? an obstetrician? with access to these women’s medical records? Do you think so little of women that you think they take this decision lightly? I have assisted with women who have had abortions for: life threatening hypertension (women DO have strokes and die from this), aggressive estrogen feeding cancer of the uterus diagnosed during pregnancy.Acute lymphocytic leukemia diagnosed at 5 months of pregnancy, the woman had such a high WBC count she had to be transferred from her doctor’s clinic to the ICU, pregnancy related heart failure-this woman went on to get a heart transplant, severe eclampsia with intractable seizures.Sorry, the woman comes first, it was a choice between two deaths or one, and sometimes them mother died too, despite all of our care. This doesn’t even include the gross non-viable birth defects found in ultrasound tests. The woman signs a paper, it’s called a CONSENT, the woman SEEKS the termination of the pregnancy, unless she is so sick there is no choice…oh, like the woman who had a car roll over her belly at 5 months of pregnancy, this pregnancy had to be terminated to save the mother as well. I have been a practicing nurse for 30 years and NEVER have I seen a woman come in to terminate a pregnancy without long thought and consideration of the consequences of her action.
jmmmm

“What kind of person would kill abortion Doctor George Tiller?”

A terrorist.
hoverFrog

It takes a special kind of nut to kill another person.
Pseudonym

In addition to the condemnation of why anyone would commit premeditated murder, I have to ask: What sort of person would commit murder in a church?
Frik

I’m sorry ‘Frik’, did you say that you were a doctor? an obstetrician? with access to these women’s medical records?

Your position as a nurse biases your judgment in terms of the women who thought through their abortions. You would only meet those who go to a nurse seeking treatment for a fatal complications. You simply would not have experienced the rest of the population, many of whom have abortions for reasons that are far less noble than saving a woman’s life. Some women do it out of fear, out of pressure from a boyfriend or husband, and out of the simple choice that they no longer want to be pregnant.

I have met many women, some of whom have been raped, that have had second and third trimester abortions and regretted it. Furthermore, the same individuals have testified that they went into the procedure not truly knowing what an abortion was, how it operated, and that it was more than a nebulous “removing of the contents of the uterus”. That’s all some states, like Massachusetts, notify women when they are having the procedure which ends an unborn child’s life.

Are there women who have third trimester abortions because they would die otherwise? Yes. But there are also many individuals who didn’t give the decision a lot of thought, or who were misled by Planned Parenthood counselors who made it seem like abortion is the only option. I know people who were fed lines by Planned Parenthood, to sell their services, instead of truly listening to the women’s circumstances and whether or not having a child would be right for them.

Many women seek abortions in desperation, and not understanding what they are doing.
Ron Brown

False analogy. In the perspective of pro-lifers (which I’m not; I’m right on your side), it is not about killing one random person to save a larger number of other random persons, it’s about killing one murderer to save all of his future innocent victims, and perhaps to get some justice for his previous kills.
MaikUniversum

…And many women just want to have a choice.

Many women do not want to be “public incubators”. So, even I don’t like the “idea” of abortion, I want that women have had a choice, so that THEY can decide and not (religious) government.
RHA

Aside from the debate going on here, can we put this is perspective a bit please? Dr. Tiller was a human being. He was an intelligent and caring man. His work was driven by his experiences as a doctor, the legacy his father left him and his desire to help women. Considering the state of threat he was almost constantly under, it’s unlikely he was doing it for the money.

I met Dr. Tiller when I went to hear him speak at the Mogentaler Clinic in Toronto. He began as a family doctor and began performing abortions as his encounters with patients brought him to the realization that a need for a doctor who was skilled and sympathetic was there.

He described the extensive process they have for couples and women alone to go through (it’s a week long and mandatory) before they have a late term abortion. They start with counselling and have full services onsite, even funeral. A big chunk of their clients as couples who find out late that the fetus they carry has severe deformities. This can be very traumatic, often moreso if the pregnancy has to be carried to term and stillborn or maybe born into agony for a short brutal few days before death. Dr. Tiller and his staff handled this with care and there are now only two remaining places in Canada or the US that offer these services.

Dr. Tiller was a compassionate and dedicated man who left behind a wife, 4 children and numerous grandchildren. That he was murdered is a travesty. I completely understand the drive people feel to reduce or eliminate abortions, but violence is never the answer. If these sorts of people and organizations focused more on honest education, helping people access and use contraception, advocated for societal change to better support parents/families, supporting medical advances to avoid problems where abortion might be needed and so on, they’d have a much greater impact on the abortion rate that in interfering with clinics of killing doctors.
Beetle

@Frik,

You wrote:

most pro-life people do not rejoice at an abortion doctor’s murder

Which, I actually believe to be correct. The problem, of course, is that the majority of xtians are silent as their fundy brethern have seized the stage. I think it incumbant upon mainstream sects to denounce the fundies among their ranks. Their reluctance to do so, only adds fuel to the secular movement, which is okay with me!

Latter you write:

damage that comes from a worldview that is not grounded in a transcendent being

No one has called you out for that bit of nonsense! As this example demonstrates, a worldview grounded in a transcendent being enables radical behavior.
Lost Left Coaster

Thank you, Frik, for showing that people do not have to actually be Christian in order to be completely full of #@$! on this issue. Perhaps women that are considering abortion should all check with you first to make sure that their reasons are “noble” enough?

I wouldn’t say that this murder is on the hands of all anti-choicers. But the fact is, the anti-choice movement has both tolerated and created the atmosphere that fosters murderous lunatics like the perpetrator of Dr. Tiller’s assassination. I feel, more and more, that you can’t reason with people that feel that removing an embryo from someone’s uterus is equivalent to murdering a fully formed human being.
Stephan Goodwin

So is the radical right ready to waterboard the man that is in custody for shooting this doctor? I mean, he may well have been working in a terrorist cell to kill doctors everywhere and this just may be the beginning?

Why am I guessing this will NOT be the stance of Cheney and the FOX “News” gang?
anonymouse

How does that phrase go? “Christians care about EVERY life, right up until the moment of birth”?

If you claim to be pro life, then it is absolutely fundamental to your credibility that you are outraged over this ACTUAL murder.

Also, I have noticed a lot of people on this forum (many of which I assume to be men but can’t be sure) chime in about abortion often, and it’s very much under the premise that women take this issue lightly. Many of you may now know that the vast manjority of abortions are first trimester, and that late-term abortions like the ones Dr. Tiller performed were life-saving for the women. Many people don’t know that many late-term abortions are WANTED fetuses,
Ash

Frik-

You simply would not have experienced the rest of the population,

because nurses never leave the confines of a hospital; whereas you’ve met everyone who’s ever been pregnant, right?

many of whom have abortions for reasons that are far less noble than saving a woman’s life. Some women do it out of fear, out of pressure from a boyfriend or husband, and out of the simple choice that they no longer want to be pregnant.

yep, woman have a right to choose; should I presume that you think it’s wrong for woman to have the final say over what goes on in their bodies? or that you think these are a fair proportion of the reasons for *late-term* abortions, as was being discussed?

I have met many women, some of whom have been raped, that have had second and third trimester abortions and regretted it.

I’m sure you have, given your background as described. There is absolutely no reason you would have heard from the possible majority of woman who were put in this situation, were extremely grateful for the availability of medical intervention, do not regret it at all, and therefore have no reason to go telling all and sundry about it.

Are there women who have third trimester abortions because they would die otherwise? Yes. But there are also many individuals who didn’t give the decision a lot of thought, or who were misled by Planned Parenthood counselors who made it seem like abortion is the only option.

Are you still talking about 3rd trimester abortions here? if so, citation needed.

Many women seek abortions in desperation, and not understanding what they are doing.

Do you realise how this sounds?
Shorter Frik – women is too stupid to make their own decisions
anonymouse

For some reason I guess I hit “submit”..anyway…

TRUST WOMEN.
To make their own decisions, regarding THEIR own bodies.

To say they don’t know what they are doing is calling women stupid. To assume that the decision is made willy-nilly is something else entirely- it is sexism.

Some of the “counseling” and waiting periods that some states have for women wanting abortions are just another delay. These types of delays are put in place by anti-choicers to make it harder for women to exercise their right to choose.

If you are poor and crossing a state line, that one extra day of “counseling” can mean your job, and your family eating. The myth that only young women who don’t want responsibility get abortions is sickening. What about poor single mothers with BORN children who need to eat? Who cares about these children?
These measures are not to protect any actual human. They are to further degrade women. Women of color and poor women are disproportionately targeted.

Frik- everything you are saying is just a repeat from what anti-choicers say all the time. The reasons women get 2nd or (rare) 3rd trimester abortions are their own. Many cannot afford earlier abortions. Many find out their fetuses are severely retarded or physically handicapped and would have no quality of life. I guess that doesn’t matter to people who could give a shit about the humans already on this earth. Who cares if a parent has to throw their life away and birth a child that will never stand, walk, talk, have a family of their own, or even be in pain its entire short life? As long as it’s ALIVE for some time, yes?

The fact of the matter is, YOUR opinion on what is a “noble” reason for getting an abortion doesn’t matter because it’s not YOUR body or YOUR pregnancy.

Saying this situation gives a woman a free pass to abort but this situation doesn’t is incredibly sexist. So what if a woman wasn’t raped? So what if she was? She has the intelligence to decide how it will affect her life.
When I hear men talk about what is good for women as a whole, and what circumstances THEY feel abortion is acceptable in, all I can do is shake my head. It’s the same line of thinking that, instead of asking if they’ve caught anyone suspected of a rape, asks whether or not the woman was drinking or wearing a short skirt.

READ THESE TWO ARTICLES, please

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/01/25/my_late_term_abortion/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jill-brooke/how-dr-tillers-abortions_b_209686.html
Tim D.

To say they don’t know what they are doing is calling women stupid. To assume that the decision is made willy-nilly is something else entirely- it is sexism.

…

Saying this situation gives a woman a free pass to abort but this situation doesn’t is incredibly sexist. So what if a woman wasn’t raped? So what if she was? She has the intelligence to decide how it will affect her life.
When I hear men talk about what is good for women as a whole, and what circumstances THEY feel abortion is acceptable in, all I can do is shake my head. It’s the same line of thinking that, instead of asking if they’ve caught anyone suspected of a rape, asks whether or not the woman was drinking or wearing a short skirt.

Amen!
Tim D.

P.S.

Here’s a good example of a situation where a man blames the woman for “making herself vulnerable” to rape(taken from a blog post on crossexamined.org):

Phil Weingart: And I don’t want to come across as overly judgmental, but honestly? the girl who gets so drunk that she becomes a target, knows that getting drunk makes her a target, and the girl who believes the lie, knows it’s a lie.

Me: That is a horrible thing to say. So you blame the victim?

Phil: Look, I’m not saying that anybody deserves rape; nobody does, and the guy who does it deserves some jail time. But my GOD, you cannot POSSIBLY look at a girl’s stupid, immoral, grotesquely irresponsible dissipation of that sort and not assign some blame for putting herself into a situation where she’s completely vulnerable. Can you? What the heck is wrong with you?

Here’s the link/citation to that conversation, if anyone cares:

http://www.crossexamined.org/blog/?p=109#comment-12117
medussa

Hey, Frik,

you say you’ve met so very many women who have regretted their decision to abort, so therefore, somehow, you deduce they should be protected from further regrettable decisions and be prevented from having the choice in the first place.
According to that logic, marriage ought to be illegal, among many other things, because I know oh, so many people (both men and women) who have regretted their choice of spouse, the choice to have kids, the choice of career, the choice of tattoo. Are you ready to outlaw all of those as well?

We make decisions that are not always the best, and sometimes we live to regret them. And often, we realize the choice we made was the best.
Personally, I know the abortion I had was the best option at the time: my life was a mess (one of the reasons I was pregnant in the first place), I had no means of income, I was living in a van, I was impossibly immature, and I was wise enough to know that that was absolutely no future for a child, and that I was in no condition to be a mother. I did not enjoy the abortion, but it was a good and moral choice to make, both for me and for the baby this fetus would have become.

You make these sweeping statements about women, but don’t cite your expertise: are you an ob/gyn doc? A counselor? I would bet money on you being a man and never having been actually faced with this dilemma.
It’s good to know you care about women so deeply you want to protect them at all costs, as long as it’s women paying the price.
Jason

Frik is an idiot, pure and simple. When he rails against “late-term abortions” he doesn’t have the facts. Here is the one fact you need to know Frik: Late-term abortions are only performed when the life of the mother is in danger BECAUSE of the pregnancy. Know your subject before mouthing off.
Rachel

This debate seems to have turned over on a new topic entirely, perhaps it’s time to open a separate thread for abortion? (Though it could turn blogtasticly ugly as such debates tend to do)

I am pro life, but that also means pro this doctor’s life. Nothing excuses a killing in my mind, and thus this is just as unacceptable.

Everyone is responsible for their own life and death, and that is the right I wish every person had. I think the real problem lays in differentiating of whether or not the unborn child is still “mothers body”, or “child’s body” / “separate person”. I can definitely see why the topic causes anger when there is a firm belief that the unborn child is mothers body, not an easy one this.
And let it be said, I have the utmost respect for opposing view, and those holding them, even though I stick to mine 🙂
Ash

Rachel,

I think the real problem lays in differentiating of whether or not the unborn child is still “mothers body”, or “child’s body” / “separate person”. I can definitely see why the topic causes anger when there is a firm belief that the unborn child is mothers body, not an easy one this.

Not so for me; the foetus is clearly a seperate entity from the mother with its own unique DNA. My issue is that it is entirely dependant on that mother for most of its gestation, and no-one should be forced to effectively turn over their body for the benefit of another against their will.
Mariano

The post at the following link ties a nice bow around the idea of Christian abortionist murderers:
http://atheismisdead.blogspot.com/2009/06/george-tiller-abortionist-murders-and.html
Noboru Wataya (the cat)

Okay, to clarify how killings of abortion doctors manage to make all pro-lifers look bad, think of it this way.
What do you think of Muslims? Have you ever entertained the viewpoint that Islam is an inherently violent religion, more so than Christianity or other faiths? If so, why?
Tracy

First of all,to those so called ‘women’ who think that its their body therefore its their right to choose-thats BS! once you spread your legs and get pregnant its NOT just your body anymore! Theres another human being inside of you now! To those who think that its better to kill their baby becuse they are on ‘hard times’ thats also BS! Put the baby up for adoption-but then that requires you to have a soul and a conscience something which womwen like