Where Are All the Non-White Atheists?

Wading into issues of race is always difficult, even more if you’re a white person seeking to comment on non-whites.

I think that “non-whites” is far too broad a term when talking about religiosity. Both the Japanese and Chinese are non-white and if I’m not mistaken are majority atheists, though I don’t know how that breaks down amongst Japanese and Chinese Americans.

But leaving that aside let’s take the two biggest non-white groups in the US, Latinos and African Americans. Beyond self-identification I think both groups unfortunately share some things that make atheism more difficult.

The root problem would be poverty. Latinos and African Americans are disproportionately poor. Atheists overwhelmingly tend to be middle class or above. I expect there are different reasons for this. A tougher life full of injustices may make you more inclined to believe in a “better life” after you die and a divine justice than will one day make up for earthly injustice. Poverty correlates closely with lack of education and lack of education correlates closely with religiosity (and education with atheism). Finally the lack of structure in many poverty stricken communities, particularly in the case of African Americans, may make the structure of a church appealing. As an anecdote, my best friend in high school was the daughter of a single mother with substance abuse issues and lived in a poverty and crime stricken ghetto. Her church gave her a rock, a loving and nurturing community. I’m convinced that her religion and religious community gave her the strength to stay out of trouble and go on to college.

As real equality grows amongst the races and a middle class black is as likely as a middle class white, I’m betting (and hoping) that a black atheist will become as likely as a white atheist.

Quick: Name ten non-white atheists! (Can you do it? Are you struggling?)

Oooh, ooh!!!

1) Hemant
2) the guy who sings that rap song about atheism

I am an australian mixed-breed indigenous lesbian atheist.

Of my identity, I consider the lesbian and atheist parts the most important.
c:

and the majority of asians i have met are not religious. they’re not atheists, they just lack a religion and have never thought about it

I believe with your theory, Hemant, more than Vjack’s. For the black community, the church is *incredibly* important.

It’s been interesting…since as I’ve discussed Proposition 8 with people (I’m ex-mormon, so there’s a lot of stuff to talk about with regarding to the church’s actions there), people have always been quick to say things like, “Why focus on the Mormons? Black people also overwhelming voted for Prop 8. How do you explain that?”

And I think the flaw people make is in thinking that to point out this correlation is to point out some racial difference.

But really, the story is that the religion and the black church are *extremely* prevalent in the community (even to the extent that even when I identified as Mormon, even that wasn’t good enough since that isn’t a “black church”)…so, the more plausible explanation is that certain religious groups tend to be more socially conservative, and black people just happen to be a part of these religious groups.

I’ve heard arguments from other people. For example, many gay rights groups are indignant that black people could not support civil rights for the gay community, even though we know what the struggle is like, and they have been more indignant whenever certain black media personalities have said, “well, black civil rights are a righteous civil rights cause and gay civil rights aren’t.”

What I’d try to explain here is that this *once again* roots down to a cultural pervasiveness of religion. The black community’s foundation in civil rights is tied closely to the church. So, Dr. Martin Luther King is a doctor in theology or philosophy and is a minister. That changes things up, because that means that *today*, some people unfortunately still cling to archaic ideas from the Bible to justify prejudices.

I’d say check out the computer science departments. I’m not even an atheist, but I have two college friends who are athesist and are non-white. Well, one is Vietmese (his family practices Buddhism, but he went to a Catholic school) and he is a self-identified atheist. The other is a guy from Iran. He moved to Canada two years ago and was living in my dorm.

Also, to address what Claudia has said,

I think that there is a kind of double consciousness or tresconsciousness nowadays that has to be faced for every black individual. One is a desire to be connected to the black community (or perhaps even to Africa) as a result of shared struggles. Another is a desire to move beyond the “warts” of the lower parts of the black community, but maintain black identity. And the final is the desire to embrace the westernization of living in America as opposed to Africa or anywhere else.

And I think that even for middle class blacks, you still may not see clearly which two will be prevalent. I think this is important because since the black church is rooted in the struggles of the black community, someone who has that in their identity may not publicly embrace atheism, which still is seen as a “betrayal.” So, it’s partially socio-economic, but in some ways, culture is sticky.

Generally, when people move to the latter two (the middle desire is, I think, the prevalent “middle class” black attitude, and the latter is one that I think can finally allow people embrace things like atheism), then you see more black people who are willing/able to say, “I’m atheist, and I don’t have a problem with this.”

But I mean, if we look at Barack Obama, I think you can see part of this conflict. I of course don’t think he was in cahoots with Reverend Wright (and I think he’s closer to atheists’ side than he can publicly allow), but it made an incredible amount of sense that he would be in that position, because from his books, it seems that he went through a period of time when he *did* want to get back that first desire and reach with the black community.

Andrew S. I absolutely agree that the “black church” is irrevocably tied into black cultural identity to the point that I wouldn’t at all be surprised if middle and upper class blacks still are more religious than their white counterparts. By no means is the fact that the Civil Rights movement was so centered in the churches a meaningless detail, I merely wanted to point out that blacks and latinos have circumstances that make atheism less likely for any race. Naturally there are race specific factors as well.

As to Barack Obama, I tend to agree he’s a lot less religious than he could ever safely let on. I’m now reading “Dreams of My Father” and it seems glaringly obvious that he turned to religion out of a lifelong hunger for a community and a culture to call his own. He saw how the churches were the only anchors in the wastelands he was trying to lift up. He desperately wanted an anchor, a full identity, and he knew that only a full embrace of religion would ever allow him to be truly member of the community.

My only doubt is how fully he embraced it. I wonder whether he’s convinced himself that there is indeed a god, a father figure to always be there and not abandon him as his own father did, or whether he is still an atheist on the inside, deep into the closet by political and familial neccesity.

I’m white but being an atheist isn’t a big part of my identity. It was for a while, mostly in reaction to all the BS of the Bush Administration. But I’ve mostly dropped out of the online communities, and I never really participated in any f2f groups. I don’t really want religion to be a big part of my life in any way — either as a participant or as an outsider. I have better days when I just don’t think about it at all.

I have another question:

Where are all the Native American atheists?

It bothers me that I am the only Native American atheist I know of.

Though I’m what one might call a minority, the difference is that I have neither cultural nor familial ties with religion. Though I was brought up a good old American Christian, I can’t say with sincerity (childhood naïveté excluded) that I ever truly accepted it. Even so, while it’s absolutely true that I am an atheist and probably always have been, I think it’s silly to identify myself by what I’m not (a believer in a deity). That is, I would identify myself a humanist and a bright before I would an atheist. Yes, “atheist” is both descriptive and absolutely true, but it explains nothing. I don’t know if the same rationale applies for others or not.

Why don’t we see so many other “minority” atheists? I doubt there’s any one reason, but there are both cultural and social influences. Familial pressures, cultural roots, respect for tradition, the community aspect, etc. Sorry, but Christians are much better than atheists at “community.”

I’m surprised that no one has yet mentioned Ayaan Hirsi Ali!

I am a Filipino living in California for the last 26 years, and once considered myself an above-average believer, along the teachings of the Roman Catholic church. It is here in America that I started questioning those beliefs ten years ago. If I were still living in the Philippines, I probably wouldn’t have been an atheist because religion (and superstition, believe it or not!) is a part of daily life. You just never question your family’s beliefs. There are very few Filipino atheists that I know of and the ones I personally know, I met them here in the US. Most Filipinos are intellectual slaves to god and religions, and easily swayed by sweet-talking preachers. Roman Catholics are the majority, but more and more are leaving to join Protestant denominations, moving from one fairy tale to another.

For non-white atheists, there’s also the Black Atheist blog: http://theblackatheist.blogspot.com/ Speaking of atheist minorities, where are all the LGBT atheists? Is it just me or does it seem like we don’t have that many? It just seems like when I go to atheist sites, there’s more straight atheists than there are LGBT atheists. I’m white, but I’m a gay atheist and I can count how many other gay atheists I know on one hand although I know plenty of straight atheists online. I also can’t seem to find any support group forums or sites specifically for LGBT atheists (does anyone know of any, by the way?), although I can find Christian-friendly LGBT sites. I just don’t feel comfortable posting at a Christian LGBT site since I’m not a Christian. I just wondered why there doesn’t seem to be that many LGBT atheists. You’d think there would be a lot more given Christianity’s opposition to the LGBT community.

Depending on country, non-white can be the majority. So I guess you’re looking for “non-white atheists living in a European-founded, majority-white country” :p

Re ArchangelChuck:

I agree with several things that you said: atheism is very mere…explaining very little (other than, of course, a lack of belief). However, I like that freedom, because it means I’m not committed to one other thing. My ethical structure can be blended, my actual beliefs can be blended, not rigid, etc., I don’t have to “own up to” any one philosophy.

So while the lack of atheist community could lower our numbers (and in particular, I *still* think my Mormon upbringing is a big part of my “culture” despite my not believing and, similar to you, never *truly* accepting. There’s not to many things (esp. not atheism) that can have that kind of cultural integration, but that’s why I *like* atheism, because it doesn’t force me into a mold.

Quick: Name ten non-white atheists! (Can you do it? Are you struggling?)

Famous ones? I should be able to answer it since I more or less keep abreast of Freethought, etc. in India via nirmukta.com, but living in Canada doesn’t help in keeping up.

Now, I don’t know that many Indian people, but all family members of my generation with whom I am in regular or semi-regular contact are atheists. My Indian friends (or rather, friend) is also an atheist. Completely different story with my East Asian friends, however.

For me, atheism isn’t a big deal. I don’t pay too much attention to stuff (I keep up, but don’t really participate) because I just don’t care enough. In my ideal, atheism is something that should be the default (id est, passive not active – but this is only possible in the absence of religion), so it’s not something in which I should invest my time. Frankly, I have so many other things I’d rather be doing. This, I believe, is how atheism (and skepticism) is for me, my friends and family (with one notable exception, but he’s white). Those of them that are atheists and skeptics know that the notion of a deity is preposterous and that e.g. homoeopathy is ridiculous, but they’re not active in it because it isn’t a big part of their identities. It’s not like our parents even go to the mandir (temple) every week. I don’t know how well this generalizes, however.

I’m a black atheist. Yay.

It’s kind of the same in the African-American community–that I can see, anyway. Religion is supposed to be this HUGE thing in your life. So when it’s not a part of your life, it can really affect the identity. I mean–and I’m sure many others with intense religious roots in their ethnicity can identify with this–you get the “If you’re not religious, you’re not really black” crap all the time.

In non-internet life I only know two — and you’re both Indian…Maybe that means that Hinudism and Jainism are false, where as Southern Baptists are on to something 😉

:: There never seem to be many of us minorities in the atheist crowd. You go to a conference or a local meeting, the percentage of minorities are a lot smaller than in the general population. ::

I find it interesting that most of the commenters seem to be starting with the assumption that atheists of color are rare, and then trying to figure out why that is so. Perhaps they exist in great numbers than you see at the meetings, but are not all that interested in coming to the existing array of meetings?

Speaking as a feminist and a lesbian, both feminist groups and LGBT groups have had a history of similar issues — looking around to discover that nearly everyone in most organizations was white. Generally speaking, the problem wasn’t that feminists of color were rare, nor that queer people of color were rare. The issue was often that these mostly-white groups tended to behave in ways that felt non-inclusive to many people of color, or worse, tended to push them out of the group.

For example, conversations would default to the problems of middle-class white people; issues especially relevant to feminists or queers of color would be considered to be fringe issues, or otherwise unimportant; discussed “solutions” to problems would often be things that worked for middle-class white people but not so well for communities of color. People of color would be discussed in “them” terms instead of “us” terms (when they figured in a discussion at all); when discussing why people of color weren’t coming to meetings, the opinions of white people on that matter was often given more weight than the opinions of people of color. Mind you, this behavior was usually regardless of how “open” or “welcoming” the group considered itself to be, and largely unconscious. The group would intend to be welcoming, but wouldn’t look at its practices to determine if it actually was welcoming or not.

In order to overcome that, said groups had to stop asking “Why are feminists/queers of color so rare?” and start asking “What are we doing that is inadvertently pushing feminists/queers of color out of our group? What are we doing that is unconsciously unfriendly to people of color?”

Just as a Christian group asked Hemant to come into their churches and tell them what their churches actually looked like to a non-member atheist, mostly-white atheist groups might very well need to discover what they look like to atheists of color, especially atheists of color who aren’t already members of the group.

I’m half-Asian (Parsi Indian). By the way, would anyone know the easiest way of getting in touch with Greydon Square? Please do let me know if so.

Thanks a lot,

Ariane
ariane@arianesherine.com

Religion is part of cultural identity for Europeans too, I haven’t seen any genuine studies on the subject suggesting that Europeans are different from other people in this regard. Plenty of European atheists identify with Christianity, most of them were raised involving influence from one of the major Christian denominations. Christianity is highly influencial in European culture, even of highly secular societies.

Religion for minorities in Europe gained greater influence very recently. For a long time cultural identity was almost independent, even when groups were part of the same religion they practiced it very differently, separately. There was also a much greater amount of assimilation into the majority culture, which for some didn’t include adopting Christianity, but definitely practicing a less observant brand of religion.

Minority concerns will seem less important to a majority, I think this is fair and essential. It’s an oppression on a majority to be subject to the concerns of a minority above their own concerns. Majorities should be concerned with fairness and equality more than special interests of smaller groups. Be inclusive by all means but don’t bend over backwards, be unfair, or sacrifice goals, that’s going down a path of bankruptcy many groups have gone down.

I’m glad I stumbled upon this blog today. You can all add me to your ‘non-white’ atheist list. Yesterday I posted about my ideas on secular weddings. I realized that I may be alienating many people and turning people off of my site. It’s a shame that people mistake disdain for organized religion as negativity. I don’t really like to categorize myself as an atheist, but I have been questioning the concept of God since I was a child, and logic and science seems to win every time.

Ok, we’re not famous, but my dad, my sister, and I, we’re completely non-white (S.E. Asian, to be precise) and we’re completely non-theists. Oh, and my Japanese-American close friend is non-theist too.

Just wanted to give some examples. 😉

Speaking of atheist minorities, where are all the LGBT atheists?

Greta Christina’s blog , maybe?
There are also a few who comment on Ed Brayton’s blog, Dispatches From the Culture Wars (though Ed himself is not gay).
And I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall D.J. Groethe is gay too.

Speaking of D.J., he has interviewed Norm Allen three times on the topics of skepticism, black history, religiosity, and black humanism. All highly recommended.

HERETIC ALERT! The following is extremely politically incorrect.

Look we all know atheists (well at least the intellectual kind who frequent sites like this, not the voodoo, witchcraft variety) are more intelligent than the general population. We know that leading scientists, who are surely smarter than the general population, have a much higher rate of dis-belief than the general public. We know top colleges have higher rates of disbelief (i.e. Brown University) than lower ranked colleges (i.e. pick a big state school in the South).

The connection between mental acuity and disbelief/atheism is well documented and ostensibly logical. (Of course, other factors affect rates of disbelief, but intelligence seems to be a primary aspect of disconversion.)

OK here’s the crazy part. I don’t know why, but blacks, at any given socio-economic levels (i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1995-SAT-Income2.png), score about 1 standard deviation below whites on intellectual exams (IQ, SAT, GRE, LSAT, MCAT, HS exit exams, etc…). Let’s not argue about why. You can attribute the significant gap to anything you want, but there seems to be an intellectual chasm between the races. On the other side, Ashkenazi Jews outscore European whites by about the same margin.

Unsurprisingly, the gaps amongst these groups on intelligence examinations mirrors the gaps in rates of disconversion. Blacks have an extremely low rate of disconversion, whites have in the middle, Asians (who score halfway between whites/Jews) have less fundamentalist and less God-centered religions and probably more atheism, and Jews are heavily represented amongst the atheist community.

SO maybe it has something to do with intellectual ability.

Thoughts? Accusations of heresy?

being a pasty Canadian, I don’t have much to add to this particular subject, but I just wanted to thank everyone who’s posted here…..

This is precisely the type of great discussion that really makes me appreciate this place (and all participants) as much as I do 🙂

Honestly, I can’t think of another forum/blog that inspires such consistently articulate and respectful discourse…..so, kudos to all 🙂

(and no, i’m not running for any kind of office:)

My ancestry does contain some African and some Native ascendants. I look like a white guy. I have been an atheist as long as I can remember. That is to say that religion never made sense to me. I don’t think I ever believed it.

Other than being atheist and left-handed there are no other minority issues that I can claim. Unless you want to count being male as a slight minority in the United States — I don’t for obvious reasons.

I look at this on being an emotional issue. How hard is it for a person who is, such as myself, not looked upon as a ‘threat’ to tell others that he does not believe in God?

Sure it takes some boldness, a pinch of chutzpah, and a dash of unmitigated gall. But this issue is not at the top of the list of issues that people are victimized by on a large scale. The atheists are doing fine. It is an issue that I pursue because I’m interested in it but if it were an issue that I were asked to fight for, to put my life on the line for, I would not. I would instead choose person’s right not to be murdered, have enough food to eat, not be tortured in prison, not to have to work 16 hours a day in a factory where they’re are paid just pennies for doing so, etc. When justice prevails at the highest levels then more non-white people can be free to come out of the atheist closet.

Yes I know all about the hatred, hostility, and violence that religion can inspire. It’s ugly as can be. But I would choose to solve the problem that children around the world starve to death before I would make it make it OK wear an atheist t-shirt to work.

Where are the Native American atheists?

My father is Native American, and an atheist. My mother (also a nonbeliever) is of European descent. They raised me to question everything, especially any belief system that promotes bigotry and exclusion.

I am Japanese-American, 4th generation. i am an atheist. My parents are non-religious, though mon dragged my resistant ass to christian church as a young boy, though she hasn’t gone for decades. My father’s side are Bhudists though I think it’s a very superficial. I think very few of my cousins regularly attend services, though I beleive they would not claim to be atheists. I have attended a few Bhuddist funeral services and have two things to say about them:

1. They are incredibly boring and what is said has no practical usage in everyday life. I can see why they complain about the dwindling attendance.

2. American Bhuddism seems to be some amalgamation of Eastern and Western faiths now to broaden the appeal. I asked the Sensei about reincarnation when my Grandmother died and he said she reached Nirvana by dying. Wow! if so a bunch of monks in Asia are wasting their time with all that 24/7 meditation.

I’m a pasty white Brit, but i know more than a few gay atheists, but not many non-white atheists. I’ve noticed that over here in England there are many churches that cater very much for certain communities. I’ve got a sihk temple and a black church very near my house and to say the congregations are homogenous is an understatement. In a secularised nation like England i’d be very interested to see the percentage of church goers broken down by ethnicity.
I’m also well aware that the catholic faith is dying in Europe (slowly, unfortunately). Africa is the new bastion of catholic strength and once that old devil Ratzinger shuffles off the mortal coil i wouldn’t be overly surprised to see an african pope.

After living in Asian communities in England for many years (in Bradford and Manchester) i’ve got to say that most of the young guys I knew from those communities gave very little thought to god or religion but would not consider themselves atheist. To many of them Muslim means the same thing as Pakistani. Its something you are rather than something you do.

To me as a white guy i have the luxury of picking and choosing my minority status as an atheist. Especially since its one i can reveal at will or hide as i choose. Given how strong the church is as a community lynchpin in some non-white communities it must be incredibly hard to break away, even if you think the whole god think is daft.

Claudia,

There you will find that the so-called “chasm” between the races has been getting smaller throughout the decades, something that you would not expect if the difference was due to anything biological and not external.

That’s not right at all, at least a change doesn’t exclude a genetic explanation. If we’re talking about more than one generation, and “black” is charaterized as anyone with at least one “black” parent then any change does not exclude a genetic explanation. If the number of children with only one “black” parent increases, or children with one or more “white” ancessors are selected, then if the difference was due to genetics then you would expect an increase. I’m sure there are more scenarios that would work as well.

Also the article discusses the difficulties in making IQ tests that do not depend on the level of education and the fact that no genetic or neural factor has yet been found to support your claim.

This is a far better challenge, one I’m inclined to accept. It would be very difficult to create a study to find a genetic factor affecting IQ differences between populations that controlled for enviromental differences. That there is no evidence of any specific genetic factor in IQ is unsurprising given our lack of knowledge in this area, and is not required to suspect a heritable trait.

The definition of “race” is also problematic if you want to start discussing scientific tests. In society, the child of a black father and white mother (like Obama) is classified as black, and in the data for test scores reflect that. Biologically however, he is as white as he is black and it makes no sense to not note that. The studies have used a societal definition of race that is utterly worthless to science if what you are trying to find is innate (and therefore biological) differences between the races.

The definition of race has more problems than just classifying “mixed” parentage as “black”. Race concepts are based on arbitrary biological characteristics. A random person from one population is more likely than not to be more genetically similar to a random member of another population than a random member of their own population. Therefore, I agree that using race concepts is worthless to science for looking for genetic causes for differences in IQ as race concepts are societal definitions. Not only that but I have yet to see a non-societal definition of race that would be worth something in this context.

I can unfortunately name only 3 off the top of my head, myself of course included.I myself being an “African-American” (by governmental standards even though my family lineage is more prominently from the Caribbean as well as Europe before Africa)Atheist as well as female feel that I am an extreme minority by visual appearance but this does not bother me since in college I have formed a comfort group of like minded people who help to make these minorities less painful. I was raised with a bit of religion, mostly from my fathers side who is Jamaican and my mother who is African American but may pass for Caucasian never enforced anything on us after their divorce. She even took us to multiple churches to find a sense of community, which I feel we never truly found one. This look at various theism allowed me to come to terms at the fact that I thought all the worship and groveling was rather disgusting when it was used as a ploy to wipe away ones “sins” of the week. I never shared my feelings and not till my circle of friends told me there was a name to go with this collection of feelings about this one thing did I come to realize that my beliefs, actually had a title. With this title there were people that would quicker look at my human worth rather than my human genes. And that gives me a great sense of security that while I am a minority, I am not alone and it matters not what my DNA decided to do to code me darker than the majority. And for a side note, no I have not told my parents and only one of my siblings knows my decision because I know that they would be disappointed.

SO maybe it has something to do with intellectual ability.

Thoughts? Accusations of heresy?

I must say The Unbrainwashed that as a student who is finishing her college degree, an african american student who did poorly on her ACT as well as SAT and a soon to be teacher who understands those scores and teaches those who have the higher rankings on those tests I must agree and proven data states that no the ACT and SAT are not a correlation to inteligence or much else but that they are a good test taker.

Which is why they are still trying to correct the SAT and ACT in the first place

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090414102650.htm

I have to argue that I am not very intelligent in comparison to my other white atheist friends but I understand that, and so do they. However that has not hindered me being an atheist, I think it took me longer of course because I never knew their was a title for what I felt, but just like those students who have high SAT and ACT scores, I learned it. That makes me no different from anyone else who decided to break from theistic ideals.

As a final note, it is that problem of feeling that you are higher than others that gives fuel to the fire of theists who are already sniffing like dogs to find something to complain about.

I’m an atheist and I’m of 100% East Indian descent. My family is Hindu and I even had a Hindu wedding (to appease my parents’ culture), but I am a devout atheist. Of course, they have no idea of this. I live in NYC, so I run into many more atheists here. So far, I know of a few more other East Indian atheists, one African-American atheist, and a few Asian atheists. People here in NYC don’t care much about what religion you are and it’s not talked about much so there could be more that I’m just not aware of.

does it really matter if there are POC atheists or not? considering the consequences of over 500 years of white supremacy, colonialism, rape of land and people, i think whether a person of color believes in god is the least of our worries.

when we have the free time and leisure that white folks have to have intellectual debates then we can worry about whether religion is true or false. but since we live in greatly unequal world i don’t think it really matters?

I’m an American atheist and I’m of 100% East Asian descent. To be an Asian American atheist is to be a total outsider within the Asian American community. I attended a large university on the East Coast that also had a large number of Asian American students and it seemed like the majority of them were Evangelical Christians, for me to tell other Asian American students that I was a skeptic was like marking myself an outsider, so anyway I’ve only known of two other people of my ancestry who are atheist, at least openly atheist…

It matters if religion is a primary cause of the inequality.

Likewise, it’s difficult to find Deaf atheists who are fluent in American Sign Language. Only my Deaf best friend and I are atheists and we are still searching, after 10 years to find other fluent ASL signers who are atheists. 

 Hooray! Pah another Deaf atheist! Nice to “meet” another Deaf atheist, finally!
http://www.ASLmasterTutor.com —