The Quiverfull Movement

It’s interesting that a strong correlation exists between religiosity and lower intelligence. So if religious people continue to dominate new births, religion will not only fester, but we’ll become dumber as well.

Can’t wait for the “Idiocracy” or “The Marching Morons”!!!

“What questions would you like me to ask her about the Quiverfull movement?”

What’s their main source of recruits/converts? How do people find their way into a movement like this? In particular, do they start out as “mainstream” Christians who then become “quiverfull” or do they start out irreligous and get “saved” right into the movement?

I have a dreadful feeling that I already know the answer to my question:

What kind of education do “quiverfull” children receive? Do a significant percentage of them go to college? Do females get the same opportunities for education as males?

And a related question: How many of them marry and start their own families before the age of 25?

I’m honestly a bit torn about the Quiverfull movement. The feminist part of me tries to tell myself that I should be supportive of whatever choice a woman makes, whether it be to have no kids or many kids, go work or stay home in a traditional way, etc…

But the other part of me (the larger part) thinks Quiverfull is ridiculous and irresponsible to the population, the environment, the children, etc… And while I want to tell myself this is the woman’s choice, is it really? How much choice does one have when the alternative is the wrath of God? And maybe even the wrath of your husband, but I won’t speculate on that since I can’t judge all the husbands from sweeping generalizations.

For the 4th time this week, I’m passing on this documentary on Patriarchy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdaYlSAUr94&feature=PlayList&p=0EF65036D32CF582&index=0&playnext=1

Probably the most important video a woman could watch?

At some level, these people are just proving that they subscribe to our conviction that religion is determined largely by when and where one is born. These Christian women fully expect to produce Christian children. But I’d like to check back in 20 years and see how many of these kids have remained faithful to that religion. These women, I think, are setting themselves up for a lot of sorrow in the future when many of their “babies” run into the realities of 21st century thinking and “fall away.”

Actually, I think in 20 years it’ll be hard to find anyone who has heard of or remembers the Quiverfull movement.

I know many of those that participate in the quiverfull movement also adopt. Many of them adopt older kids that would not otherwise have a home.

What I am curious about is whether their desire to adopt is to help children or to convert them to their form of christianity? What do they do if their adopted children do not accept the religion that is pushed onto them?

I think this movement will backfire on these people. They are going to raise a generation of angry, dysfunctional children. Some of them will become warriors for Christ who will be perpetually segregated from the larger secular society and some significant number will react negatively against Christianity. This will be the upside for the atheist movement, a large number of angry new atheists.

…likely numbers in the tens of thousands but which is growing exponentially

From her recent article on Salon, it seems that there are newsletters/magazines/homeschooling organizations for Quiverfull families, so you could make rough guesses using their subscription/membership numbers.

As for the power of exponents — that’s the whole point, isn’t it?

What questions would you like me to ask her about the Quiverfull movement?

Is the movement actually increasing the number of evangelicals? The recent American Religious Identification Survey shows a decrease in the percentage of Americans who identify as Christian. Of course, the actual numbers could have increased while the percentage decreases, but the Quiverfull movement seems like a really inefficient and irresponsible means of achieving political dominance.

Like others, I’m most interested in what the kids are like when they grow up. How many stray from the fold? Do the girls grow up to be Quiverfull moms? Perhaps not enough time has passed for much information on this, but it’s what I’m most interested in – is it “working” or not?

My question: What can we do to counteract this? This scares me a certain amount, since (as others here have pointed out), one’s religion is largely determined by the religion you were brought up in. Other than having eight kids myself (which I’m not about to do), is there anything she suggests for how we might counter this?

My question:

What are the parents doing to keep their daughters from leaving, as has been a problem with past generations raised in fundamentalist Christianity? Are the children now so isolated via strictly religious homeschooling, association with other churchmembers only, no college for women and little exposure to outsiders or media that they will be unable to ‘de-quiverfull’, which at least the less isolated upbringing of the previous generation sometimes allowed for?

Hmmm… use of children as tools of a political movement… I’m not surprised. We’re dealing with the religious, okay? I won’t put anything past them. Jen is right, it’s not the number of kids, it’s the brainwashing that seems to go along with religious mandates of “as many children as possible.”

On the other hand, it is amusing to watch what irrational measures fundies will take to have the final word over us heathens. It makes me all that much more convinced that extremism is the expression of a frustrated insecurity on the part of the god-fearing. These are, after all, people who still believe themselves to be oppressed after 1,600 years or so of running western civilization.

they can bring as many people as they want into the world – that just makes more minds for me to subvert

I don’t know that you can espouse to support a woman’s reproductive rights and then attack her choice to use those rights in a way you don’t approve of.

It’s the same hypocrisy the fundies portray.

My main concern with this movement isn’t whether women should be allowed to have 16 kids or not; of course women should be able to choose their number of children for themselves. The women who spearhead this movement have chosen not to engage in birth control (and some previously did) whereas their daughters are being taught from birth that their wombs belong to God and controlling their fertility is categorically wrong. Is that kind of indoctrination a ‘choice’?

One woman can’t take care of that many children by herself, which is why Quiverfull followers rely on daughters (these families are extremely gender-segregated) to carry an adult’s burden of child care, cooking and housekeeping from a very young age. It’s not seen as a problem if their formal education is neglected, since it’s ungodly for them to become anything but housewives and mothers anyway – it’s a favor to them! This movement relies on young girls whose options later in life will be extremely restricted. And they never had a ‘choice’ about having those children in the first place.

What is the mortality rate at birth and during childhood? How much does the movement depend on the outside world for things such as medicine, food, or power?

Why does she believe that religious belief is strictly hereditary?

Because it effectively is, in fundie families. The children are not exposed to ideas that are counter to the indoctrination, and dissent is not accepted. Until they grow up and are able to see the world, and choose to do so, they may not doubt what they’ve been taught all their lives.

My half-sister is married to a fundie Catholic. Yeah, they exist. They have two children, and I fear for their futures unless they are eventually allowed to see the world from a viewpoint other than their father’s. Thankfully both parents are geeks, and the kids already have their own computer. All I can hope is that the internet will slowly corrupt the kids… 😉

(Meanwhile, atheists continue — for the most part, anyway, in my experience — to procreate responsibly, use birth control, and not overpopulate the planet.)

I’m a atheist and we have six kids (but we rationalize 4 of them are ‘replacements’ for our gay and non-reproducing-by-choice friends)

@Christopher

But hypocrisy is sickening, and that’s all you can call it when people claim to be for a woman’s right to make her own reproductive choices until she makes choices they don’t like or for reasons they don’t approve of.

It’s not hypocrisy, it’s skepticism. Combine a culture that says the man makes the decisions and has a track record of keeping people insulated from outside ideas (fundamentalist Christianity), with a philosophy that says it’s a family’s duty to have as many children as possible, and it’s reasonable to ask how much it really is the woman’s decision, and how likely it is to be an informed decision.

Why does she believe that religious belief is strictly hereditary?

Because it effectively is, in fundie families. The children are not exposed to ideas that are counter to the indoctrination, and dissent is not accepted. Until they grow up and are able to see the world, and choose to do so, they may not doubt what they’ve been taught all their lives.

My half-sister is married to a fundie Catholic. Yeah, they exist. They have two children, and I fear for their futures unless they are eventually allowed to see the world from a viewpoint other than their father’s. Thankfully both parents are geeks, and the kids already have their own computer. All I can hope is that the internet will slowly corrupt the kids… 😉

Free thinkers can emerge from fundie backgrounds. I was a fundie homeschooled missionary kid. My family wasn’t Quiverfull, but met just about every other stereotype about intolerant and uninformed fundamentalists. However, due to the Internet and Star Wars books (reading about the Force got me interested in philosophy!), I became the first atheist I ever met.

If fundie kids are interested in learning, and especially if they have the Internet at their disposal, they can overcome the brainwashing.

fundamentalist Christiand fear Muslims/Brown folk

I’m not very fond of fundy Jesus freaks, but it seems you’d just welcome a bunch of Muslim immigrants with open arms!!!

See Denmark, recent immigration to.

And blacks (or as you call them “Browns”) actually tend to be more religiously conservative than whites. Prop 8 in California was 51 to 49 amongst whites (in favor of gay marriage) and 30 to 70 amongst blacks.

Not sure if my last one posted so here is it again.

fundamentalist Christiand fear Muslims/Brown folk

I’m not very fond of fundy Jesus freaks, but it seems you’d welcome a bunch of Muslim immigrants with open arms!!

See Denmark, recent immigration to.

And blacks (or “Brown”) tend to be more religiously conservative than whites. For Prop 8 in Cali, whites voted 51 to 49 in favor of gay marriage, while blacks voted 70 to 30 in favor of a ban.

oh, I was so naive…several years ago I was very active in a church and was socializing with a couple who were fairly newly married, with several kids, and one on the way (by newly married I mean <5 years) and she said he wanted a “quiverfull”. I thought it was just a quaint hunting reference – seeing as how he was a hunter and all. Being a childless couple at the time, we didn’t wind up socializing too much with them, and I’ve since left the church. wow. I think if I’d have known what quiverfull meant, I’d have left much sooner.

If the movement succeeds, it’s a nice demonstration of evolution.

If these particular Xtians develop a higher reproductive rate, and their offspring share their religious beliefs and reproductive tendencies, and if other groups (including us rational patients) keep their reproductive rates constant…

Who’s with me in wanting to prevent spread of these memes/genes into the rest of the meme/gene pool? Let’s wall off the compound…

(Meanwhile, atheists continue — for the most part, anyway, in my experience — to procreate responsibly, use birth control, and not overpopulate the planet.)

If there ever was judgementalism, this is it. And hence why I find frustration that atheism, like every other ism, seeks to push their views on others.

Christians do it. Muslims do it. Athiests do it.

Having 2 kids is procreating responsibly? So in a hundred years when athiests outnumber theists, maybe we’ll have legislation saying that? Oh wait, another country is already doing that.

Please, someone create the ism that says, “Hey, believe what you want. Live and let live.”

I may think the quiverfull are a goofy lot. I think Mormons are a goofy lot. But if 4 wives makes them happy, have at it. If 12 kids makes you happy, have fun.

I just don’t get all the negativity.

@Christopher

I just don’t get all the negativity.

Because women and children are not property, and this movement comes perilously close (or possibly over the line) to treating them as such.

And because the creation of human society involves treating strangers as though they are family, at least to a certain extent. So, if all men are brothers and all women are sisters, those kids being raised by these loons are my nephews and nieces, and I’m concerned, ok?

@Christopher

So fundies are justified when they are concerned about a gay couple raising a child? So now it’s our position to worry about how every family unit is raising its children and if we agree with the method or not? If it’s not physically abusive, if it’s not emotionally abusive

But I believe that it may well BE emotionally abusive, not only to the children but to the wife. And yes, it does behoove us to be concerned about how every family is raising their children, because those children are members of our communities and our society. Not to the point of automatically taking them away, or passing laws against it as the fundies want to do to gay couples, but to the extent of making sure that children are not abused or neglected. That is everyone’s business.

@ Christopher:

I feel that you are setting up strawmen here. No one is advocating that Quiverfull be outlawed or their children taken away. (You’ll notice, however, that fundamentalists are eager to pass laws restricting gays’ rights to parent and all of us from using birth control). Expressing concern over how people are treated is thankfully allowed in a free society. I also have a right to judge the Taliban’s treatment of women and children – I don’t have to accept it as morally just because they think differently. Some issues of personhood and freedom are universal even within the context of cultural relativism.

I am truly astounded at the fear many of you are bound by – and the accusations against the QF which you toss out like hand grenades,without any foundational knowledge with which to pull the pin.

The movement is comprised of very loving families who, by and large, successfully raise their many children to become much more productive and responsible members of society than what the secular system is producing. I’ve already seen many children of QF families grow up and become happy, well adjusted citizens. My own dc (which stands for dear children) are well adjusted, college educated, QF adults now.

I personally know *many* QF families (in fact, one family of eight children has willed all eight to us, should their parents both die at the same time). None of them are on public assistance (although I know many atheist and agnostic people who are on the dole), and many adopt handicapped children, which is more than most of you are doing as I can see by your posts.

One of my friends and her dh (dear husband) decided to adopt after their two dc were adults (in their mid-twenties and on their own). They now have eight more children, all crack babies, all of whom have turned out healthy with the exception of one, who they have also loved and cared for – without public assistance.

Listen, I was raised, and was for many years, an atheist, and I am okay with that – but the level of ignorance and fear here toward *all* people of any religion is so – bigoted and unfathomable that it is truly sad and would cause me great embarrassment if I were still an atheist today. I am amazed that you don’t seem to know enough to actually *be* embarrassed over the things you are saying. Perhaps if you replace the word, “Christian” or “religious” (or whatever term you choose to group THEM in) with something like, “Gays” or “Blacks” you might be able to *hear* yourselves a bit better. Fear and bigotry are still fear and bigotry no matter what group it is held against.

I don’t have the time or interest to correct all the false notions about those who are QF that have been expressed here (mainly because so few of you have shown any intellectual curiosity at all, or even the ability, much less the desire, to objectively study the matter), but I can tell you that, sadly, many of you sound like a bunch of fearful old biddies running around saying the sky is falling.

And from this vantage point, the vast majority of you sound pretty silly.

Do you realize that?

Many of the commenters are asking how one can claim to be “pro-choice” and pro-feminist and then disapprove of the way that the “quiverfull” women are living their life. I think the answer is that you’re looking at the wrong “victims.” Personally, I have no objection to the choices of the quiverfull wives, inasmuch as they are choices. My sister is part of this movement, and I believe she has a right to that.

HOWEVER, quiverfull wives and mothers make up a very small percentage of the women affected by this movement. For every quiverfull mother, there are many quiverfull DAUGHTERS. It is these young women we need to be concerned about, and whose rights we need to protect. These daughters are raised in families that severely restrict their rights. In many cases, they are discouraged from choosing their own spouses (“courtship” requires the man to ask the father’s permission to marry his daughter and disallows the girl from making her own choice), and certainly have no practical freedom of religion. Girls are brainwashed into accepting the same lifestyles as their mothers, and severely punished socially if they reject their norms. For my own part, raised ina fundamentalist family, I found myself literally living on the streets with no survival skills when I decided to reject their lifestyle and religious choices by going to a secular college (incidentally, I also couldn’t continue going to college because they refused to sign off on my financial aid forms). If Quiverfull parents were encouraging their children to choose their own path, then I wouldn’t have a moral objection to their actions. But that’s not the case.

Feminists need to take a strong stand against this movement not to “save the women from themselves,” but to save the children from a system that is fundamentally abusive.