Can Atheists Be Conscientious Objectors?

I think that when you dispense with the need for an afterlife of any sort it becomes harder to take another life. The people you kill (whether in the line of duty or not) will not go to a “better” place. They are just dead. I find that taking a life brings an even greater burden (and responsibility) as a Atheist than it would have as a theist of any sort.

Here’s a quick comparison with the situation in France:

It used to be that all male French citizens of a certain age were required to do a certain abount of military service (like for a year or something), or they could file as “conscientious objector” and do civil service instead. (Now I think it’s no longer required.) As I understand it, the civil service option required a much longer period of service in order to discourage people from filing as C.O. if they’re not serious about it.

My husband filed as a conscientious objector and ended up setting up computer networks in public buildings (I think libraries). He said it was a simple matter of sending in a standard letter. As I recall, he said he tried composing his own letter, and they made him re-write it to be more like the standard one. And religion had nothing to do with it — he’s an atheist.

I was reading about filing for CO a few years ago, and almost everyone recommended joining a church as soon as possible to show your “bona fides.”

I really don’t know what the judge was thinking when he wrote:
“PFC Aguayo did not identify any specific ways he has altered his behavior to accommodate his beliefs.”

How does it work, really? Do you say, “YOu know what? I think killing people is WRONG. Therefore, I’m going to go to a big building for 3 hours every Sunday and listen to sermons and sing hymns, all the while making sure that I don’t kill anyone.”

How about, instead of doing that, you say, “I think killing people is wrong, therefore I am going to apply for CO status and when it is denied, I am going to go AWOL and will go to military prison before I pick up a gun.”

Refusing to kill people is a much better indicator of your views on killing people than singing hymns is.

This is so infuriatingly stupid.

My brother got CO status during Vietnam because his vegetarianism is based in his belief that it is wrong to take any life. He had become a vegetarian in 9th grade and had witnesses to attest to his reason. Still follows this belief “religiously.” He is and was an atheist.

We still argue over the fate of the poor potato.

So, wait. First they complain that nontheists can’t have morals, because morals come from god. Then when a non-christian claims to have morals so strongly held that he wanted to break a contract, they simply clap their hands over their ears and refuse to listen?

Robbo – Not everyone knows themselves perfectly well. It’s also possible for people to change due to circumstances. This guy thought he was up for something and then discovered he wasn’t. Isn’t it better he bows out now so they can put someone in his place who actually wants to be there?

In reality his ‘beliefs’ are very human, and not extraordinary.

This is where it gets interesting. Religion often confirms what people already think. Hate gays? There’s a church for you. Want to help the poor? There’s another church for you. Why do we ascribe higher value to weakly held church-sponsored beliefs than fervently held individual beliefs?

“Because that’s how I feel” isn’t really a lot of proof…

How do you prove something like that? Short of a real-world demonstration of pacificism? If you’re religious, you can “demonstrate” your belief by sitting in a pew. If you’re an atheist you can’t.

He was a humanist/agnostic before he went in, and then he became … humanist/agnostic???

This is another relic of church thinking. Belonging to a church putatatively gives you a coherent set of beliefs you supposedly believe in. Individuals — even church-going ones — often have varying (and even self-conflicting) beliefs. People’s beliefs can change without changing their designation. As far as I know, agnosticism has no fixed system of beliefs.

What is the “higher power” that Aguayo believes in if he’s an agnostic?

Probably something abstract like moral law. Or maybe he’s just phrasing his beliefs in poetic, abstract language to be more platable to the religious. It’s a time-honored technique.

I was in the Marines, and I got lucky because I didn’t see any war time. The whole time I thought to myself, “I don’t want to have to kill anyone” because I know the people I would be killing are people just like me, have families, and at one point were an innocent baby that like myself was conditioned by their environment to be how they are and where they are, and it would be hard to justify killing these people over a war that even as a whole is more than likely unjustified itself.

Somebody above said something to the effect of “kill or be killed.” But how I see it is two wrongs don’t make a right. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. The bloodshed will never end with this mentality. I am an atheist, and will I die for the sake of my moral values? Yes, If I think it will make the world a better place, if I can stop the chain of “an eye for an eye.”

Why? Because I have been conditioned to believe that purpose is subjective, and if I am to do anything with my life, I will dedicate it to making other lives better, more peaceful. And I don’t want to take credit for it either, because I know I have been conditioned this way, “I” am out of my control. Making the world better, makes my life better, worth living.

I sympathize with this guy, if somebody doesn’t want to kill, why should they be punished for this!? The religious military leaders want to force an atheist to kill and yet they have the audacity to claim that atheists don’t have moral values, and that moral values must come from religion. They are the ones forcing him to kill! What we learn about the religious here is that they are the ones trying to force people to kill, specifically in this case a person that has openly stated a moral objection to killing. And it doesn’t take being a member of religion to hold such values.

inkadu –

He had to write an defense of his position. I believe it was not so much why he believed it, more that he did, and had behaved accordingly. He had always told people that that was his reason for becoming a vegetarian. Several affidavits testified to that.

As I recall, he did not have to justify it as being based in any religious tradition.

It is difficult to assess the depths of his beliefs because they rest solely within his own thinking and personal values without the support of background, family, or faith group.

I think this quote by Karen Frantz quoting the military chaplain disturbs me the most.

Anyone, and many, many do, fake a depth of belief with the “support” of background, family, or faith group.

No, each person’s faith and beliefs must rest solely within their own thinking and personal values. Anything more is simply culture.

My initial reaction to Aguayo’s claim was very dismissive – he enlisted and when the going got tough he ran away.

Then I read that he had already done one tour of duty in Iraq. I think he should have been able to quit the army for any reason. I respect his courage for fighting in a war and, IMO, he should be let out of his contract. I do not care whether he wanted out for moral reason or because he missed his mother’s cooking.

I work with a fundamental creationist/Christian…who used to be in the army. He is very staunch and tough, but I have yet to ask him how he could justify being trained to take someone else’s life. That sound you hear, is my irony gland rupturing.

Anyway, the answer is, I think, yes. Conscience is not restricted to members of organized religions – or any theist, for that matter.

Addressing the question, “Why didn’t you think of this before you signed up?” is very much a standard part of any CO application. That aspect of the case doesn’t strike me as particularly unique.