Why Is This Covered Under a Flexible Spending Account?

Do they also cover alternative/homeopathic medicine? I could understand in that case– perhaps they are trying to cover health related services that people use, whether or not they are backed by science. If they don’t cover alternative medicine, I have no answer. . .

Look at the list. No, homeopathic medicine is not listed (and is BS in my opinion).
Acupuncture and chiropractic are listed (and I’m open minded about those being potentially helpful beyond placebo effect).
“Christian Science” is the only one that stands out as wacky to me.

And don’t confuse this with HMO coverage. This is the list of what the federal government will allow you to spend money that you set aside (in a Health Savings Account or Flexible Spending Account) for healthcare purposes on. (i.e. the list Hemant linked to is identical to that provided by my FSA administrator.)

I can’t believe this hasn’t been challenged – I’ve gotta dig into it some more.

Some more info from Wikipedia:

‘Qualified’ practitioners may advertise in the Christian Science Journal, published by the Church of Christ, Scientist as its official organ. To advertise in the Journal–in print and/or on-line– the applicant must be a full-time practitioner and provide evidence of three cases of healing, not including family members. These cases must be attested to in writing by those healed. The on-line listing is accessed through http://www.spirituality.com and then under ‘journal directory.” Some traditional insurance plans cover the cost of treatment received from a Christian Science practitioner listed in the Christian Science Journal. The United States government has ruled that payment for Christian Science treatment is now considered a medical expense by the IRS.

Incredible!

I asked my sister, who was for many years in the health insurance field. She said that many insurance companies do cover expenses for Christian Science Practitioners as medical treatment. This includes Medicare, by the way, in addition to the FSA. Often the insurance company will require a prescription from a doctor for the treatment (that’s where my mind boggles, an MD writing a prescription for prayer?) and it requires a medical diagnosis. She also said that in ten plus years in the business she only saw one or two charges come in.
As for why, she said she has no clue why this would be covered, but it’s been going on for a long time. She never questioned it (there were a lot of rules that didn’t make sense, this was just one more) and she didn’t know Medicare covered it until she checked into it when I asked about it. It just doesn’t seem right to either of us that the government should cover it.

Why is this a problem for anyone? A flexible spending account isn’t funded by the taxpayer. Also, one assumes that anyone opting for a Christian Science practitioner isn’t going to be using up any tax payer funded medical services any time soon. If this is the primary form of care a person chooses to spend his or her FSA dollars on, what’s it to you? Why do you care if it’s allowed? What does it take from you?

This is where atheists always lose me. Why do you care if someone believes and chooses to pay for a prayer-based healing session out of his or her own pocket?

It seems more and more as if a certain type of atheist isn’t going to be happy until they have the government actively quashing any form of religious expression, anywhere, anytime.

Actually, all this anti-any-religion-anywhere stuff is really beginning to look like a hate campaign.

I personally don’t like the idea of people suffering needlessly, which is what is happening when they think that prayer can heal them. That’s why I don’t want to see this crap being anywhere on the same level as actual medicine.

It seems more and more as if a certain type of atheist isn’t going to be happy until they have the government actively quashing any form of religious expression, anywhere, anytime.

Actually, all this anti-any-religion-anywhere stuff is really beginning to look like a hate campaign.

Here we have religious exceptionalism in full form: Catch them operating their religion as a tax dodge and they accuse YOU of hate!

Religion is the Blagojevich that keeps on Blagojeviching!

And I do care that the shysters taking money for performing this “service” get to avoid paying income tax that the rest of us have to pay.

Dr. Irving Finegarten: I could sue you for calling me that, Polly! A shyster is a disreputable lawyer. I’M a QUACK!

But they’re not getting an additional tax benefit for doing this.

They’re giving money to support religion that they didn’t have to pay employment taxes on, and hiding it as a medical procedure, which it clearly is not.

Frankly, if chiropracters are covered, everything should be covered. They’re nothing but a pack of charlatans and quacks.

Agreed.

But no one cares

Disagree.

But no one cares because there are no religious overtones to that ridiculous nonsense.

What’s key here is that the First Amendment doesn’t mandate a separation between quackery and state. Yes, chiropractic is a waste of government money. The government wasting money is hardly a new thing, nor is it illegal or unconstitutional. A waste of money is one thing, monetary tax breaks as a promotion of a religion is something else.

Calling my criticism of it “a hate campaign” is something else entirely. Tamp down the rhetoric a bit and you may gain a bit more respect around here.

Face it, you don’t like this because it’s religious. Period.

Yeah. That’s it. I don’t like crooks dodging taxes and getting benefits that only favor one religious belief because I’m anti-religion.

BTW — just for the record, I think mainstream western medical treatment is a joke and a nightmare. I think western trained mainstream doctors are a bunch of pansy-assed little pussies who spend 100% of their time bending over for lawyers and insurance company executives.

Also, the majority of dollars spent on healthcare in this country, whether they come out of FSAs or are paid through traditional insurance plans, or the government, or come out of pocket for the patient, are spent on conditions that are easily preventable by the individual him or herself, and at zero cost.

As a taxpayer, it pisses me off no end that I end up picking up the tab one way or another for the fat, lazy and stupid.

So the day the government starts penalizing the deliberately unhealthy for their behavior is the day I worry about the miniscule percentage of Christian Scientists who even have FSAs who use those dollars for faith healing.

Seriously. I get the feeling you wouldn’t give a darn if someone used their FSA dollars to buy a flat screen TV, but this gets to you because it’s religious in nature.

Thanks for telling me what I supposedly think. Stop by anytime.

I think western trained mainstream doctors are a bunch of pansy-assed little pussies
….

As a taxpayer, it pisses me off no end that I end up picking up the tab one way or another for the fat, lazy and stupid.

There’s that sense of Christian love and goodwill to men that always warms my heart.

I do have a problem with CS practitioners being on the list, or maybe I have problems with the FSA itself.

I’d like my massages to be covered since they (honestly) have provided more medical benefit to my back pain than many strictly “medical” procedures. So my “practitioner” is the masseuse – yet I can’t count it.

So this is similar to allowing the nativity scene at the capitol… if the gov’t is gonna allow one person’s interpretation of medical treatment, they should allow all. While I could care less that a CS practitioner is on the list, my “practitioner” is just as valid as a CS practitioner. And then why not add some of those zealous preachers who invite their audience to come up and “be healed!”… if a person walks again (hallelujah!) because of one then a monetary payment to the preacher should be a medical expense.

And just FYI, there’s great secrecy to what a practicioner charges… as a former CSer, I was told that a practioner is supposed to charge “equivalent to a doctor”. But there are no published rates, no UCR, that I’m aware of. I could be wrong – it’s been a long time since I was a CSer — but back then charges were an private matter between the CS practitioner and client. Even as a dutiful religious kid I thought that was suspicious.

just for the record, I think mainstream western medical treatment is a joke and a nightmare. I think western trained mainstream doctors are a bunch of pansy-assed little pussies who spend 100% of their time bending over for lawyers and insurance company executives.

Being one of those “pansy-assed little pussies” myself, imagine my dismay when I come home from a night of call that involved me inserting a needle into a child’s pericardium to drain an effusion that was killing her, followed by placing a 2kg infant on heart/lung bypass in an attempt to save her life – and read your pathetic drivel!

As you might imagine, I curled up in a ball and called my lawyer for comforting. “</sarcasm

Lynn, you are ingnorant, a coward, and a small, small person.

No, dear. I’m an incredibly well-insured, fairly wealthy person who has experienced first hand the dollar signs going off in the eyes of doctors at Columbia Presbyterian, St. Barnabas and NYU Medical Center when they see who I am and what I can afford.

Of course, you take offense because you’ll no doubt claim ALL doctors don’t do this. But then, at the same time, you want to exclude faith healing from allowable FSA expenditures because you’re convinced that ALL prayer healing is COMPLETELY ineffective.

Right. Kiss the western doctor’s ass, do what you’re told, never ask questions, allow serious violation of your person, don’t dare to expect an intelligent explanation of the test or an honest answer regarding whether or not it’s necessary, etc. Been there, done that, wouldn’t give a western doctor a dime ever again. I’d rather die than allow myself to be physcially violated by western doctors again. Last time they pulled that crap, I up and left and called a lawyer and won. Rape is rape, whether it’s some guy in an alley with a knife or some egomaniacal, unethical doctor with a needle.

I’m small minded? You have to be kidding. The closed-mindedness regarding this particular coverage is astounding.

I am perfectly comfortable accepting death over western medical intervention and I have taken the appropriate legal steps to ensure that nobody interferes with my person and my wishes.

The problem with having “had a bad experience” is that I no longer have any reason to trust traditional western doctors. None. I have had enough bad experiences, and one serious, unethical, illegal violation of my person to know these people can’t be trusted.

As you say, my treatment is my choice. As it should be the choice of every citizen who uses his own FSA dollars to pay for the treatment he finds brings him the most benefit. It is not up to the state, or to the AMA, to decide what benefit he chooses as right for him.

I would support expanding the list of allowable FSA expenditures, but I will not support shrinking it just to satisfy a bunch of bitter, whiny atheists who are intent on throwing a tantrum every time they can’t kill something religious in nature. I will always support anything that gives patients more power.

If allowing Christian Scientists to choose faith healing over traditional treatment means the right to say no for patients everywhere has greater support, then I’m behind them 100%.

No means no. Just because some spoiled brat’s daddy got him into medical school doesn’t mean he gets to violate others to pay for his Porsche, his bimbos, and his McMansion — or his new high-tech equipment.

I am not alone here — there have been a bunch of articles recently, even by doctors who are owning up to this kind of fraud and medical assault (the legal term for performing unnecessary tests and procedures against the will of a patient), about how manipulating unsuspecting patients with high levels of insurance coverage/high incomes is standard practice at most medical institutions. They do this to cover their overhead, and a lot of that overhead is deadbeat fat asses who “need” medical intervention because of their own laziness, piggishness and stupidity.

When someone addresses that outrage, then I’ll get all concerned about a handful of people using a handful of FSA dollars to pay for faith healing.

Of course, you take offense because you’ll no doubt claim ALL doctors don’t do this.

No, Lynn. ATL-Apostate is a doctor, and he takes offense because your statement offends him directly. As a doctor. Which you would have known if you had read his full post instead of accusing him of “Kissing the western doctor’s ass.”

Let’s have a little intellectual honesty here instead of latching onto the parts that are easy for you to respond to.

If ATL-Apostate is offended, so what?

He has a right not to be offended by someone who thinks the integrity of his profession has been seriously compromised?

What a crybaby.

For a lot of atheists, it’s about what they can take away from others, not what is ultimately good for everyone.

You’re right. Public money should be spent on charlatans that are out there to line their pockets and dodge taxes–what else do you call someone who charges money for a prayer and calls it a medical treatment?? We just want to deny people the right to piss our tax money away, take away their rights and make Atheism the one mandatory State Religion.

People should have a fundamental, inalieable right to spend FSA dollars on crack cocaine because it makes them feel better. Who cares if it works or not! The only institution that’s actually evidence-based is so overrun with corrupt insurance execs and wealthy lawyers that it’s totally worthless! Better make it a free-for-all!

We aren’t an oppressed group defined only by our lack of belief in deities, seeking equal rights or any of that crazy bullshit. No, apparently we’re an organized group of oppressors. Damn, we suck.

BTW, I got that ATL-Apostate is a doctor. I did read all the words.

I still don’t trust the mainstream medical community.

I also don’t go all over submissive when someone tells me they’re a doctor. A doctor is paid to provide a service, just like the guy who cuts my lawn and cleans my gutters. If the guy who cuts my lawn and cleans my gutters tried to screw me, he’d get the same treatment. And if three lawn care people and gutter cleaning people in a row tried to screw me, I’d sure as heck be pretty darned leary of the industry.

Again — the benefits of freedom rock. I choose. I get to choose. I get to call the shots when it comes to my body and my money. If that “offends” some doctor on the internet, too freaking bad for him.

And that some atheists believe all atheists are marginalized has exactly what to do with CS prayer healing being included as acceptable expenditure of FSA dollars?? Did you want atheist prayer services included? Atheists non-prayer healing services? What do you want, other than to EXCLUDE Christians?

I get SO tired of stating this, but here ya go, for the umpteenth time: I AM AN ATHEIST!

I just don’t jump on the Christian-hate-train with the atheists who’ve made religion-bashing the driving force in their lives.

Yes, SOME atheists ARE hateful towards religious folks. That’s just a fact. Others don’t care. Believe it or not, there are atheists out there who honestly don’t care if Christian Science prayer healing is on the list of acceptable FSA expenditures.

Lynn, the comment about marginalization of atheists comes in response to this comment here, and many like it:

For a lot of atheists, it’s about what they can take away from others, not what is ultimately good for everyone.

If I’m not mistaken, your original argument is that expecting the exclusion of a religious service from Flex spending is an example of atheist-borne hate and oppression.

It is the opinion of many people here that since Flex spending is by definition a tax break, it is in the interest of the tax payers to ensure that it is used wisely and effectively.

You countered this with your mistrust of the entirety of mainstream medicine in the US, arguing that medical care being in the shape it is, alternatives are required, and that limiting treatments that can be covered under flex accounts is tantamount to limiting choice and therefore antithetical to freedom. This is what you keep harping on, and we’ve been going in circles on this argument.

It was pointed out to that since the medical field is the only source of treatment that is rooted in real, empirical evidence, that it is the only effective allocation of Flex dollars. You rejected this line of thinking, once again, based on your mistrust of bureaucracy and touting freedom of choice, and we’ve been going in circles on this argument as well.

It has also been pointed out to you that we do not take issue with alternative therapies in general. We may pity the victims who died from staunch refusal to seek treatment that would have worked, but we feel that legitimizing these therapies by allowing them to collect money tax-free is a bad idea. You once again took a hard, all-or-nothing approach to flex spending, touting freedom of choice and the miserable state of “Western Medicine”.

You have also insisted that it is no skin off the taxpayer’s back for FSAs to include alternative therapies. This is absurd, because any tax break is made up for in other places with – yes – public money.

But Lynn, even if you disagree, you know our point of view on FSA money being spent on religious services, you know why we disagree with your opinions, you know that our opinions are not formed without considerable thought, and it should be fairly clear to you why some of us feel it is in no way oppressive or hateful, but rather, the fair thing to do.

If you had started this conversation by simply expressing disagreement with the majority of people here about flex spending and religious services, and stating your argument in a coherent fashion, rather than coming straight out with bald accusations of hate and oppression, the discussion would never have gotten as heated as it has.

Lynn, should e-meter readings be covered under flex spending?

I have no issue with “heated”.

I have a huge issue with whiny, selfish and babyish.

To me, your opinions still seem formed primarly by your aversion to and hatred for anything religious. To me, this is still about trying to take something away from religious people just because you don’t like religion.

And that’s the problem — it’s not that you just don’t believe in a deity, or put any stock in religion, it’s that you actively dislike and fear all things religious.

That’s bigotry, and bigotry is just another form of hate.

by your aversion to and hatred for anything religious

it’s that you actively dislike and fear all things religious.

There you go again telling me what I hate and fear. That’s prejudice and prejudice is a form of hate. Oh, see, I can spout platitudes too!

What you seem to be missing here is that excluding prayer from medical insurance coverage does not prevent people from seeking it on their own dime! Nobody wants to ban it outright. It’s neither hatred nor fear, which we have explained to you over and over and which you have conveniently ignored over and over, in order to support this weird superiority complex that separates you from the “angry atheists”.

Sorry, no, not all criticism of religion is based in hate and fear.

You’re right.

There is no point at all in talking to each other.

Have a lovely evening.

Craig, you haven’t been following, have you? Christian Scientists pay taxes like everyone else. Their tax dollars go to support medical and healthcare benefits they never tap into. I don’t see them crying about how unfair it all is.

The amount of taxes they pay into our system is exponentially greater than any tax benefit they derive from the miniscule number of Christian Scientists who a) have acceess to FSAs and b) use them for prayer healing, as well as the tax-exempt status of the practioners themselves.

If you want to be fair, then allow religious people to opt out of paying for abortion and contraceptives, and for those whose beliefs forbid the use of mainstream medical care, to opt out of paying for healthcare programs that benefit others.

Personally, I think we’re all seriously over-taxed, so anyone who gets away with paying less taxes is a hero to me. I’m a true libertarian. I think the crap that went down yesterday will guarantee that this country falls into a deep financial depression starting around summer of this year and lasting for about two years. That ridiculous waste of billions and billions and billions of taxpayer dollars really should concern you a lot more than the handful of Christian Scientists who may be saving a very small amount of money on the taxes they pay.

But, again, it’s all about pushing religion underground. You won’t be happy until this is Communist China or the old U.S.S.R., will you? Yeah. That’s all worked out so well…

Lynn: I’m sorry that you cannot understand the difference between a Christian Scientist and a Christian Science *Practitioner*. I’m not going to waste my time trying to get through to you anymore – it is obviously futile.

And Siamang: religion may help her, or could make her worse…scary thought. She is already suffering from irrational thought processes – they won’t do anything to alleviate that. I’m not sure even western medicine has a cure for that – depends on what the underlying cause is.

@ Lynn – projection much?

I think a long vacation on a nice tropical isle would really help my health – can I get put that on my FSA and get a tax exemption for it?

The FSA is a tax break for people who have to shell out a lot for medical treatment. Not vacations and not prayer, or at least it shouldn’t be.

One thing I don’t get is why it keeps being compared here to massage therapy, which generally IS covered if it’s from a licensed massage therapist and you have a prescription from a doctor. Seriously, check it out, it is usually covered.

Gulfwatcher:

massage therapy, which generally IS covered if it’s from a licensed massage therapist and you have a prescription from a doctor. Seriously, check it out, it is usually covered.

Just a clarification – we’re talking about FSA here, which is dictated by taxation law. Massage therapy is not listed as something that FSA dollars can be used for.
Insurance companies of course have discretion about what they cover, but FSA is very different.