Is This Atheist Sign Going to Help?

That’s stupid. This is a holiday celebration display. Why didn’t they choose something upbeat and holiday-ish that is secular? This is the exact kind of thing that pisses people off. And for good reason. It’d piss me off and I’d boo at him if I saw him with that sign at a holiday display, and I’m an atheist. Besides a Christmas tree is not a religious symbol — it’s a symbol of a secular and commercial winter holiday.

Getting more preachy than the believers themselves? Not sure it’s a good approach.

While I support their right to post those signs, I wouldn’t do it.

I support their right to post it, and I support the verity of the conent in which it reflects. If people have a problem with it, it is because of their own dispositions.

I like the idea of a sign, atheists need more visibility: ‘We are here, we are godless; get used to it!’

But an aggressive, in your face approach is probably not the good approach especially toward the general believer population.
Especially not in the context of a Christmas celebration which is associated with warm and fuzzy feelings.

Something like:
‘I will drink hot cocoa the exact way my mother used to prepare when I was a kid and chat with aunt Jane I only see this time of year.
I will share a nice dinner with my family and catch up with them.
In the morning, I will share the surprise and excitement of my kids and store happy memories to keep me warm all year long.

I don’t need a God to appreciate Christmas’.

Warm and fuzzy should be the way to go.

Word to those who’ve criticized the sign for it’s ineffective (and unhelpful) content. This sort of thing contributes to the idea many people have that atheism is a sort of religion – grouping with religious displays, proselytizing – and doesn’t really fit in with a holiday display, because it’s not celebrating anything. Celebrate the solstice, or Festivus, or what-have-you, but this is stupid.

A sign like this or an aluminum pole (for its very high strength to weight ratio) would be playful and represent actual celebrations that don’t involve religious belief, rather than the paradoxically dull middle finger that the posted sign represents, IMO.

Edited to add: It’s also not very good at conveying protest, if that’s the main point. It’s not going to make most people think about separation of church and state, just about the “War on Christmas” and how atheists are insulting their beliefs during one of their most cherished times of year. (Yes, it’s insulting their beliefs by calling religion something that “hardens hearts and enslaves minds.”) This distracts from the separation of church/state issue and makes things worse in several ways.

At first I cringed when I read the sign, but then I wondered, “What am I afraid of?” I’m sick and tired of being afraid to speak my mind. I completely agree with the content of the sign and it gives me more courage to speak out rather than bite my tongue. Many people will choose to feel offense at this sign, but the sign isn’t offending them; they’re responsible for their response. As several readers have said on this site over the years, “You don’t have the right to not be offended.” Timidly tiptoeing around all the time to avoid giving others an excuse to strut and bluster their pretentious umbrage is never going to get us any respect from them. This sign won’t either, but it promotes my own self respect, and that’s a start.

I love the sign. Absolutely love it!

I think it should be placed anywhere religious memorabilia is displayed in public places. If the religious do not like it, then maybe they will get the point and understand how we feel.

This sign definitely deserves to be placed in the capital building. Maybe the religious will appreciate the 1st Amendment a little more after seeing this 🙂

“Besides a Christmas tree is not a religious symbol — it’s a symbol of a secular and commercial winter holiday.” –writerdd

It wasn’t just a Christmas tree. In 2007, a local real estate agent sued the state in order to get them to display a Christian nativity scene. It worked, and this is its second year on display.

Dan Barker (President of the FFRF, man holding the sign in the second photo) spoke at the University of Washington last night in support of his new book, Godless. Having been an evangelical preacher for nearly 20 years, he understands better than anyone how difficult Christians can be. By pandering to their incessant nagging to sustain tradition, atheists give them exactly what they want. They want to pretend we are a smaller minority than any poll could ever show. For the fundies, ignorance is bliss.

While I agree that the FFRF’s message was in poor taste (the holidays are a time for good fellowship with other human beings), it is a false dichotomy to say atheists must choose between claiming their own morality, and discrediting religion. We need a comprehensive strategy to make any progress, and we need to be making headlines.

I have no problem with the sign at all. I do think the picture posted of the sign is not very good though. The news article I read had a much nicer photo of the stand-in sign. I’m looking forward to seeing what the real sign looks like. It’s a pity that there was a shipping error – bad timing. Hopefully, the error was not accidentally on purpose.

Here’s a possible scenario in which the sign could result in the discontinuation of religious displays in the state capitol building:

A religious group puts up a sign on an easel next to the FFRF sign, saying

Atheists hate America.

Atheists United then puts up a sign on an easel next to that one saying

No, we don’t. We love our country as much as you, and we have the right to speak our minds.

Then a local preacher puts up a sign on an easel saying

FEAR GOD!

Then another church, a bit embarrased by the “Fear God” sign, puts up one on an easel next to that saying

GOD IS LOVE.

Then the Secular Students of the local university put up a sign on an easel next to all those saying

Keep religion out of government.

Then an out-of-state right wing evangelical group sends someone to put up a sign on an easel next to that saying

America is a Christian Nation!

Then Americans United for Separation of Church and State put up a sign on an easel next to that one saying

“Nothing is more dreaded than the national government meddling with religion.” -President John Adams

This goes on and on, clogging up the halls of the Washington State Capitol building with hundreds of signs on easels, completely obscuring the original nativity scene and the Christmas tree, and forcing the state legislators to use the rear entrances and the freight elevators to get to their offices. Fedex Kinkos is hiring extra help to keep up with the demand for larger and larger posters on easels. The spectacle draws an enormous crowd wanting to see all the signs and to argue over them. In the jammed halls someone accidentally bumps against the latest sign, which knocks over the previous sign next to it, which in turn starts a domino effect knocking over all the signs and the now forgotten nativity scene and tree, which pops a light bulb starting a fire. The whole huge pile of paper and wood ignites rapidly starting a panic in the crowd trampling each other as they run for the exits. Many people are injured, and the Capitol building is severely damaged by the terrible fire.

The next year there is a small sign taped on the door of the state groundskeeper’s office where permits for displays are issued saying

Per the Fire Martial, due to public safety issues, no permits for religious displays will be issued. We regret any inconvenience.

I keep re-reading that sign to try and find a part of it that I disagree with.

I tend to agree with SarahH. If that makes me a “concern troll,” so be it.

As a Seattle atheist, I’m thrilled to see the sign! I feel as though we’re finally coming out of the closet—no longer apologizing for our lack of faith. Most of my family and friends are religious, and I don’t respect them for it—because I know it’s just a default state, and not the result of real thought.

What I think is that Christians would be pleased as punch if atheists sat down and shut up. So, I’m all for shoutin’ out. The sign says simply and without accusation what virtually every atheist believes. It should be the opposite of controversial. But, really, I’m all for atheists kickin’ up dust because . . . well, we have to if we’re ever going to be given respect and our rights.

The sign will not convince any of the truly faithful. Nothing will. They’ve made up their minds. But it is my experience that unless any persecuted group is willing to make some noise and stand down the bullying detractors from their position, they will never gain equal rights.

It is, unfortunately, common even for people inside of persecuted groups to adopt a “don’t make any waves” approach. I can’t think of a single civil rights movement – and that’s what this is, I’m not saying that atheists are as persecuted as black people or women, but it is largely about the civil rights of atheists to worship (or not worship) as they please, to express themselves, to have the government redress their grievances – I think that atheists who say to take it when people foist off their merry Christmases are, largely, cowards. It is NOT impolite to say, when someone wishes you a merry religious holiday, to point out that you don’t follow that holiday. If a Muslim wished me a Merry Ramadan, or a Jew a Happy Shavuot, or a Hindu a fantastic Holi, I would inform them I am not of that faith. Same with Christmas. It is not rude, or wrong, to politely assert that you have nothing whatsoever to do with their religious holiday.

Which is why this is all so crazy! This is a religious holiday. It is normal for every other religious holiday for non-co-religionists to be able to say that “sorry, I don’t celebrate that”. But with Christmas it’s different and even most atheists are of the opinion that unwanted Merry Christmases should be taken with a smile. No, no, no, no, no. Christmas is just a religious holiday like any other. This is simply nothing wrong with simple, honest assertions that you don’t celebrate that holiday because you don’t belong to that religion.

Re: “concern troll remark”: there are better ways to sell a message, and worse ones. I really think that we could learn from Barack Obama’s campaign.

As far as the kinds of things I’d rather see?

example one

example two

example three

example four

Hell, if all of these other people are going to enjoy their freedom of religion on public property, why shouldn’t atheists?

Atheism isn’t a religion, and this is absolutely going to fuel the idiotic arguments that it is.

I don’t think all atheist displays have to be about the separation of church and state, but I’m harping on it in this case because the sign in question “will be two-sided, with a lengthy message on the main side, and “Keep State/Church Separate” on the back.”

Incidentally, I’d be interested to read what the lengthy message is going to be on the intended sign. This wasn’t the first choice of sign, and we don’t really know how much thought was put into the message vs. what the planned sign said.

Atheism isn’t a religion, and this is absolutely going to fuel the idiotic arguments that it is.

It’s not a religion, but it does fall under the protection of the freedom of religion clause in the Constitution. That’s what I was getting at.

I’m not convinced that this sign is a good way to promote atheism. Passers-by who are not atheists themselves are likely to find it more offensive than persuasive.

hmm… What exactly is the issue here? The words on the sign themselves or the fact that people have a right to display the words? And what is the purpose for displaying the words? To persuade people or to exercise a right? Fear of offending people is not a good enough reason for forcing silence. And I hope people in general are not dumb enough to be persuaded by a mere sign or a display, religious or otherwise.

As a Christian, I personally do not find anything on the sign to be offensive. First of all, God and religion are not the same thing in my mind. And secondly, I take freedom of expression seriously. Each of us should be able to express our thoughts and beliefs freely. I would not hesitate to stand on the side with the atheists if I thought their rights were being violated.

What I do find a little disturbing is the fact that the government buildings get cluttered with signs etc. that should not be there in the first place. But then again… perhaps if they should be anywhere, they should be there…equally represented. I commend those in the minority who step up and go the extra mile to continue to have a voice against the majority.

He looks so alone there… that just seemed poignant to me.

I would have helped Dan Barker bring the sign in and set it up. Why not?

Not unless you have an unusual definition of “atheist” – the stance that religion “hardens hearts and enslaves minds” is a separate and distinct belief that is absolutely not shared by all atheists.

I have never met an atheist, face to face, who hasn’t thought religion enslaves minds. Not one. So, maybe that’s a function of the people who associate with me – I freely admit to being fairly hardline about the damage religion does – but it is certainly my broad experience that almost all atheists do think that there’s something wrong with even the most “liberal” forms of religion. (It is my further experience people who don’t think religion is bad but don’t believe in god identify as agnostic.) YMMV.

However, I don’t think that my comments are weakened very much to say that many atheists think that religion is bad even in its most theoretically benevolent forms. It is common for atheists to think this – as, I submit, it being put on the sign demonstrates.

If I may make an observation here:

It seems as though there is much criticism by atheists against other atheists for expressing what they feel should be expressed in the best way they could think to say it.

I would not look at the sign and think that is the exact mindset of all atheists, just as what other Christians do and say do not speak for me. It is just a view and action by one group of atheists, no? Would I be out of line to think whoever has a problem with the way things are being done should then step up to the plate and do it differently?

I’m fine with the sign but is Dan Barker really wearing brown shoes with a black suit! Good grief – no wonder we have no respect!

When you’re a public atheist, violating the edicts of the Fashion StormTroopers is very small beer.

They could have said something nice, or maybe a little snarky. But this is a sign we can all hate. Not because I disagree, but it’s not the time or the place. It just comes off as being dick-ish.

It’s not the time or the place? If not now, when? If not here, where? If not us, who? I’d rather risk coming of as being dick-ish than coming off as dick-less.

I used to feel as SarahH is describing, that we should be careful to keep our remarks circumspect and non-confrontational so to not risk alienating our potential liberal Christian allies who will come to our side in a fight for church-state separation or a fight for free speech.

But we have had many such battles, and so far for the most part we’ve waged them entirely by ourselves. They have not been there for us. Regardless of how polite we’ve kept our rhetoric, our liberal Christian “potential allies” have sat passively on the sidelines giving little if any even verbal support. In Hein v. FFRF in the Supreme Court in June of 2007, I don’t remember hearing about any support from liberal Christian groups wanting to help protect church-state separation. We lost, and because of the precedent we’re worse off. I don’t know if we’d had help from their vast numbers and resources there might have been a different outcome, but regardless, as far as I can find out our “allies” weren’t there. If anyone has differing information on that, please enlighten me, I’d be very happy to be wrong about that.

What? Not even a ‘but have a nice holiday anyway’ bit at the end? That guy’s no fun. Heck, I’ll celebrate the possible birth of Jesus or the incredible MPG of the oil on the eight nights or really anything you want as long as you don’t expect me to believe in them. But my (lack of) religion leads me to celebrate this life as much as I can- particularly when it’s gloomy out. 🙂

I’m surprised at the number of atheists who seem to have a over-the-top problem with Christmas. Quite frankly, I celebrate the holiday, obviously as only a cultural one, but nonetheless…. I do agree that religious elements should be kept out of the state, but come on.

If you just say “Religion is but myth and superstition”, people will read into it whatever they like. Atheists will look at it and say, “Way to represent!” Evangelicals will look it and say, “The War on Christmas starts earlier every year!” Religious seekers will say, “I actually agree, religion is distinct from God.” The casual apathetic will say, “Damn, why are atheists so angry?”

In order to minimize such confusion and confirmation bias, they should be more straightforward about the message they intend to convey. I gather that the intention is to protest publicly sponsored displays that cater exclusively to Christians. Therefore, maybe the sign should say something like this:

All beliefs deserve equal time on state property: There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. [etc etc]

As for how “strong” the message should be, that depends on whether they ultimately intend to get rid of all displays, or to be forever included among them.

My preference is a message with a little humor like the links Ollie provided.

Axial tilt is the reason for the season
Happy Holidays
Put the FSM back in Chrifsmas
May you be touched by his noodly appendage…

If they have to work at it a bit to understand it, they will want to learn more about the point of view…

I liked the idea of a pine tree decorated with atheistic books much better. More in line with the holiday, less offensive, still somewhat festive.

Josh Nankivel
http://non-theist.com

I liked the idea of a pine tree decorated with atheistic books much better. More in line with the holiday, less offensive, still somewhat festive.

I am *so* swiping this and making little ornaments of the most important books. Thanks, Josh!

I’ve been persuaded by Sam, Sarah, Eric, Sandra et al that atheists should display something next to the religious crap, just to make the point that it shouldn’t be there, and being offensive would probably have that case.

Christmas is not a religious holiday. It is a secular winter festival. Its purpose is to spend time with your family, share large amounts of delicious food, and exchange gifts with loved ones.

That Jesus character is an afterthought at best – so have a Merry Christmas!

As for the poster in WA, it’s blunt, but then again blunt is oftentimes necessary. If it will get all religious paraphenalia off government property (and even if it doesn’t), it will have been worth it.

My opinion on this kind of thing is evolving. The message of a nativity scene is, essentially, “This is what we believe is true.” In that sense, a message that says “We believe that there are no gods,” is not really significantly different. Although stating it with words is more blunt and direct than a pretty scene with animals and a baby.

We shouldn’t feel pushed into masking what we believe, when no one else does. But there may be better ways to deliver that message, and mix it with something positive. Commenting on the importance and power of reason and the value of skepticism and doubt. Then again, it’s hard to be positive, when the underlying stance is essentially a negation of other stances.

As a Christian myself, I don’t mind others sharing their beliefs, however this sign is not sharing a belief but rather attacking a belief and I believe it is aimed at the American Christian. If you want to win brownie points don’t post stuff like that. How about be respectful.

I try to be respectful of other people’s beliefs, I am not perfect as you are not perfect but I do try. I apologize for people out there parading around their faith as if it allows them to do whatever they want. It doesn’t.

One thing that gets me is how can you live with no hope for the future? What happens if you are wrong? According to a few faiths unless you believe you do not go on to heaven. I just can’t wrap my mind around the thought of no creator. Even in evolution there has to be a creator. Just as an artist shapes their piece so I believe that God guided evolution.

I think that the sign should be removed and replaced with a respectful one. Furthermore I think it is an attack on Christians and its not right and atheists are going to gain respect from anyone with this sign. It just shows that some of you can be just as bad as the right wing conservative Christian nut jobs.

Charmy Canuck said: “What happens if you are wrong?”

Well considering there are hundreds of possible gods our guess is that our chances of being wrong purely numerically speaking are just as bad as yours.

Difference is that we don’t pretend to know.

If anyone seems to have an insecurity about peoples right to believe something or not believe something and have it displayed publicly in a positive way it is this group of atheists who are making these displays. I am not Jewish. Yet I dont feel a need to make a display explaining why their beliefs differ with mine during the holidays. I like seeing how people of other beliefs and cultures express themselves in a positive way.

Let’s call this display by this group what it is. Something to piss people off. It’s not something there to make a statement for freedom of speech. Should people just keep making signs in public countering one another in a negative way? No. This is best left ignored. People celebrate the holidays for all sorts of reasons and this just makes atheists look like people who are out to suck the life out of a time of year that brings enjoyment to people.
This is negative attention seeking and it doesnt impress me much that people who consider themselves atheists agree with this display just because this group that made it also happens to be an atheist organization. It’s an unintelligent and inappropriate way to go about making a point.

I disagree with Nicholas’s statement. It’s not what people think it’s what they do… right?

I do have a mixed opinion about Christmas. I don’t think unbelievers have to take offense at Christian symbolism that comes with the Christian celebration of Christmas. I consider it more of a big winter holiday and people who don’t want to celebrate it can stand aside, excluded voluntarily. If atheists want in on it, and I for one do, then we need a winter holidays’ themed atheist made myth.

If the symbol for Christmas were Zeus I would defend that symbol even more emphatically because it would be even more clearly a symbol of the holiday versus the religious affiliation of the cultures that celebrate Christmas. The more holidays the merrier. Deistic “God Bless Yous” in response to my sneezing get the same approval. It’s just a cultural way to be, we don’t have to include it in the ideological debate.

I think how far you would go for your atheism is a good topic for discussion since it will probably be a different answer for each person. This answer just happens to reflect me.