Did We Win the Culture War?

I find the whole comment exasperating. Firstly, there are Christians on both sides of the culture war. To buy into this comment as being representative of ‘the’ Christian position is to buy into the rhetoric of the religious right. Secondly, was not America founded on church / state separation and was this not introduced by, amongst others, Christians burnt out by European theocracy? He is confusing secularism with atheocracy. Again, to buy into this comment as being representative of ‘the’ Christian position is to buy into the rhetoric of the religious right.

No. No we have not.

The leaders of the religious right make these sort of statements when they are interested in exploiting the persecution complex of their movement.

Abortion ban got defeated in South Dakota.
Slots are coming to Maryland.
Palin lost big time.
Lets hope 8 gets blown to smithereens.

This is off topic, but MSNBC is calling the Dole/Hagan race in favor of Kay Hagan.

I think all of that is good for Americans.

Affirmative action is discrimination, it doesn’t do the job it’s meant to, just helps select groups, not addresses inequality. I think race and gender warfare have stopped Americans supporting the Democrats because they are unfair attacks on the interests of hard working people.

The state shouldn’t be involved in defining marriage, all couples should be able to get civil unions, and then let individuals define marriage. I think that may take the sting out of the attacks of the religious. I think at the end of the day the good guys are winning the culture war on the acceptance of sexuality (including homosexuality) front.

It’s great that women’s rights to abortion are intact, and Obama should get to pick Supreme Court judges that will protext those rights. This is important because those rights were definitely under threat.

Why has there been so much attention on prop 8 compared to the gay marriage bans in Florida and Arizona?

I’m really uneasy that the current results show 52% vs. 48% in favor of Proposition 8. 🙁 At least the situation is reversed for the abortion notification law.

arizona voted to change the constitution to ban gay marriage.

“If the homosexuals are able to defeat the marriage amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman, then the culture war is over and we’ve lost — and gradually, secularism will replace Christianity as the foundation of our society,” he adds.

That is going to happen anyway, regardless of the outcome of Proposition 8. The time of the tyranny of dogma is passing. The time of forced conformity is fading. California can change its constitution with a simple majority initiative, so if this outrage passes, we’ll just keep hammering away at the Halls of Hate until we can change it back. I will never give up.

@AxeGrll:

You are goddamn right. Marriage is a legal status. The religious component is inconsequential.

My brother, not religious at all, got married in a purely secular ceremony. He has a legally defined “marriage”. Not civil union, or anything else. Marriage.

Furthermore, when people get divorced, they need to hire lawyers, yes? If marriage were a religious affair, a priest would suffice. It does not.

Prop 8 will pass, I never doubted that. But it’s only one battle in the war. We have facts on our side, as well as the inevitability of biology (there will always be more gays born automatically no matter what people do; whereas Christians must be intentionally indoctrinated). They have nothing but hatred, lies, and stone age mythology.

Gay equality is inevitable, it just might take longer than we would like. Unfortunately, many families will have to suffer until then.

So did prop8 pass or not?

yes it passed. a dark day for equal rights everywhere.

From Wikipedia:
“On July 20, 2005, Canada became the fourth country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage nationwide with the approval of the Civil Marriage Act.”
You know, Vancouver is not that far from California and almost as warm. Canada’s immigration policies are notoriously lax and I think house prices are falling. Our economy would surely benefit from an influx of American immigrants.
My country isn’t perfect (far from it!) but I think we are a little closer to embracing the 21st century in some areas than our neighbours to the south.
It’s true that we haven’t had a black Prime Minister, but we did have a female PM (briefly). I really look forward to the day when neither of those things will be in any way remarkable.

We didn’t win but we can and we will.

With 95% of the ballots counted, Proposition 8 has passed 52% to 48%.

For the first time I am embarrassed to say that I’m a Californian. I can no longer be smug and superior about Texas or Kentucky or West Virginia or any place else to which I thought my state was culturally superior. Discrimination based on superstition, fear and hatred is now part of my state’s Constitution. I am ashamed.

But my humiliation is unimportant. The setback to same-sex couples, including those among my family and friends is terrible.

This does not mean that Wildmon and his partners in prejudice have “won” the culture war. They just haven’t lost yet. This ugliness will go on for a few more generations. Even if Prop 8 had failed, those who favored it would not go away or give up. We would see similiar initiatives in every election. But that can cut both ways. After educating more of the bigots, we will be able to eventually reverse this.

Nothing is ever permanently “won.” The victors in any conflict may be able to die of old age before they see their victory reversed, but no freedom is guaranteed. For every liberty we enjoy, there are people working hard to take it away. Those who wish to oppress others have won this skirmish, but the fight will continue.

So what happens to the same-sex couples that already got married, if this religious bigotry gets codified into law?

People below 30 largely support gay marriage. So it’s just a matter of time –although no one should ever have to be patient for equality.

What drives me nuts, esp living in CA right now, is how we overwhelmingly supported animal rights while turning our backs on actual human beings.