Uninvited Challenges

Hemant, I love this blog, but I think we’re running out of new ideas. This topic has been dealt with previously under a different heading, and I think the consensus was that we don’t want to do to others as they often do to us. McGowan knows what any atheist who used to be an evangelical knows, and by this I mean a true evangelical–one who proselytizes, that direct, unsolicited assaults are as effective as cold calling someone to sell them something. It is better to wait for someone who is searching or doubting to bring up the subject and solicit your opinion.

You have to think about it like this, though:

Suppose you ran into someone who thought two and two made 5. This may present a problem when they are demanding money be paid to them, or paying money back, etc. You may feel obligated to correct this belief to prevent them from going through this, even though it is not invited. I don’t think there is anything “mean” or “wrong” about that, given the intent.

In the case of religious people, they have the same sort of intention. They think you will suffer torment and want to “save” you from this, so they try to “correct” your belief. (The problem, of course, is that they aren’t actually saving you and, for all their good intentions, their belief is utter nonsense.)

With that in mind, I wouldn’t say it is mean or wrong to try to spread beliefs or change people’s minds unasked. It would be mean if you think changing people’s minds wouldn’t somehow benefit their lives in some way, and in the end, most people who try to change other’s minds ARE trying to help the other person in some small way.

So no, I have no problem with it because I think it is “mean”. I just don’t like it if it is obviously wrong and foolish AND on top of that they woke me up at ten in the morning to share something wrong and foolish. If they woke me up at ten in the morning to tell me something useful and true, on the other hand, I’d be appreciative!

Do I consider it an obligation to challenge belief? No. But if believers spread lies and misinformation then I think I have an obligation to defend the truth, and not allow my silence to be interpreted as agreement. I think that anyone who knows the truth shares that obligation.

Have I ever been successful in “de-converting” a believer? No, not that I’m aware of, at least not directly. But I do know of at least two young men who went away from arguments with me and others, gave the matter some more thought, and deconverted shortly afterward. I think that neither of them was a genuinely hardcore believer to begin with, but the point is that they did believe and wished to continue believing, but they ceased believing precisely because they were persuaded by argument. I can’t think that they’re the only such people out there.

So, the argument is worth having both for the sake of the truth and for the sake of those who may be open to hearing it.

I don’t pretend to “respect” beliefs which I think are patently ridiculous.

“Respecting” beliefs that we think are ridiculous… hmmm… I wonder if that’s where the solution lies…(?)

I respect atheist beliefs. I understand why atheists hold the views and opinions they have about religion.

I truly think open and honest conversations are important to reach an understanding between differing views.

Is respect so hard to offer to those we don’t agree with? Must there always be that line drawn in the sand? As long as the unspoken superiority complex and the elitist attitude remain in the minds of those on either side, I see no hope of mutual respect and understanding.

I love having my beliefs challenged. Why not? Its liberating. So I like to bring up religion whenever I can. I think its a huge issue that needs to be dealt with! The great part of bringing up religion is that people may not have thought about it before. It may not necessarily have to do with not wanting to talk about it at all. If you bring it up and they say “no I dont want to talk about it” then its clear. As a society, the way we can keep each other sane is to keep challenging beliefs! I dont see a problem with initiating it, unless its made clear in the past.

Shane — but you’d have to ignore factors such as naivety, gullibility, ignorance, fear and peer pressure. Then there’s the ability to use people’s prejudices to work in your favor. The fundies don’t have to do much convincing when they know these can be used as tools to further their cause. That, and they can brainwash their kids from an early age, who will brainwash their kids, and so on.

Once there are enough of them–especially when they’re in power–then coercion works. Y’know, at the penalty of death over being charged for heresy. So no, I don’t think there would be only a few Christians, etc. if it didn’t work. I think that it started out with the previously listed factors and social and parental influence. Coercion only became effective once they had a realistic, tangible threat to back it up with.

Now that they don’t have the kind of power they did during, say, the Inquisition, they don’t have the power to assert that kind of authority and thus, they end up looking self-parodical when they try at any level of severity, benign or otherwise.

That being said, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are still communities in this country from which one could be driven away for being “different.”

I would never try to talk about my reasons for disbelief in gods unless i was asked to. i would never even bring the topic of my atheism up unless someone else brought it up first.

so far, none of my family has, which is why i have managed to stay “under the radar” so to speak.

but i really, really hope that my younger brothers will ask me. they are smart guys, and i really would like to have a discussion with them.

I agree Hemant. I’ve never seen aggressive tactics like that work.

>Has anyone actually succeeded at changing someone’s mind about religion when the person wasn’t asking for it?

The Mormons apparently keep statistics on the effectiveness of their door-to-door evangelism, and claim some successes–something like 1% success rate. Which is something, especially considering how many house calls their young evangelists make.

I think evangelism is a terrible idea, no matter what the viewpoint. If I talk about religion to someone I know, it’s never with a secret agenda to change them, but a curiosity about their beliefs that allows us to find common philosophical ground. A lot of times it helps me strengthen my own views and on rare occasion, perhaps change them. I guess I talk about stuff like that for myself, and I am a firm believer that only you can make the ultimate choice about what to believe; therefore, dialogue about religion should be initiated by you with the intent to learn more about your own beliefs. Trying to change others just smacks of control.

“Respecting” beliefs that we think are ridiculous… hmmm… I wonder if that’s where the solution lies…(?)

I respect atheist beliefs. I understand why atheists hold the views and opinions they have about religion.

I truly think open and honest conversations are important to reach an understanding between differing views.

Is respect so hard to offer to those we don’t agree with? Must there always be that line drawn in the sand? As long as the unspoken superiority complex and the elitist attitude remain in the minds of those on either side, I see no hope of mutual respect and understanding.

Really?

So am I “elitist” for thinking that racism is a preposterous and vile belief, and for showing no respect for racism as a belief? Do I have a “superiority complex” when I point out that Joseph Smith was clearly a con artist, and that the stories in the Book of Mormon are beyond absurd, contradicted by all the evidence and supported by no evidence at all? Is it “elitist” to point out that astrology is pure nonsense? Is it “elitist” to claim that beliefs which are self-contradictory, supported by no evidence at all, and believed only because of wishful thinking or sloppy thinking are ridiculous?

No. It is not. Some beliefs are nonsense, and completely at odds with the evidence and with reason. There is no reason to respect these beliefs.

As I said, I respect the person, and I will not impose or force anything on them. I won’t be rude; I won’t be insulting; I won’t seek to suppress or harm them in any way. I don’t want to attack people or interfere with their lives. I respect their right to believe whatever they want and say whatever they want, no matter how ridiculous it is. But I would be a liar if I showed respect for the beliefs themselves when they are so obviously contradicted by evidence and logic.

I find your faux outrage at my comment to be itself ridiculous. I bet I could easily come up with a very long list of beliefs for which you yourself do not have any respect at all. People who pretend that they never evaluate beliefs and show all beliefs equal respect no matter how blatantly illogical or unreasonable are being intellectually dishonest. Nobody does this.

People are deserving of respect and understanding, and I show them this. But beliefs themselves are not deserving of this. Illogical, harmful, or idiotic beliefs should not be treated as equals to actual knowledge and logic. That’s why we can’t put creationism and holocaust denial in schools. That’s why the government should only rely on the most up-to-date scientific information, and not on bogus propaganda coming from ideological think-tanks. That’s why anyone who cares about making the world a better place should take an interest in counteracting bigoted, ignorant, superstitious, false, or just plain ridiculous ideas.

I would hate to live in a world where we fear criticizing ideas because it’s considered “elitist”.