Fight, Apology, Reconciliation?

Greydon’s apology says he had a “beef” with Ellen Johnson & Michael Shermer. What happened there? I’m so not up-to-date on non-religious drama.

Call me new fashioned, but it disgusts me when a guy thinks that violence is a way to settle disputes. If two guys want to step into a ring and beat each other to the floor, more power to ’em. But as soon as one party withdraws consent, it’s a serious crime and should be treated as such, not just as boys being boys. It sounds like Brian never wanted a fight and never threatened violence yet was beaten into the hospital for which there is no excuse.

Ahhhhh!!!! you’re getting drama all over my internets!!!

Sadly, we have sheeples in the Atheist community as well. The RRS groupies swallow whatever they are spoonfed. It’s highly disturbing and more than a little nauseating. The RRS version of events is not true but there are idiots who will believe it. I choose not to.

The RRS does not represent all Atheists…they are the bottomfeeders of our *community*. I used to think they were rather amusing and bold, but after getting to know them my opinion changed. I stopped associating with them a long time ago. I know Brian well enough to know what kind of person he is…and I have nothing good to say about him…nothing.

Greydon is a good man…Yes, he let Brian push his buttons and he beat him up…now he has to pay the price for that , whatever it ends up being. Do I think Brian had it coming? Yes, a hundred times over.

There is a difference between a girl wearing sexy clothes and a guy ripping people off and then acting like he has the right to…so don’t try that line of bullshit…it won’t fly.

You can choose to hate Greydon…that’s your choice. I’m not going to attempt to change your mind because quite frankly, I don’t give a shit. You base your opinion on rumors and bullshit…I base my opinion on personal experience. My opinion of Brian was not formed due to this incident, it has to do with another incident that I was present at, and had a fight with him about. I know what kind of person he is and how his mind operates, I’ve seen it in action…I know what kind of man Greydon is and how his mind operates…using that data and I can easily determine the truth of this matter…and I could care less whether you or anyone else agree with me.

Feel free to have your opinion, I’ll defend your right to have it even if I disagree with it….just don’t bother trying to rationalize it with nonsense. Just state how you feel and leave it at that.

My newly-formed opinion of Greydon is based on multiple accounts — all of which seem to be in agreement, including his own — that he violently attacked another human being. Nothing more, nothing less.

How exactly is that bullshit?

You are of course entitled to your opinion as well, but saying that mine is based on bullshit… is bullshit.

I am not — repeat, not — defending Brian in any way. It’s been a long time since I’ve paid any attention whatsoever to him or rest of the RRS. I nearly forgot they existed until this story popped up. I have no idea what they’re up to. If Brian ripping people off, then yes, he should be held accountable. But “being held accountable” does not mean “having his ass kicked.”

(And please spare us the hyperbole about me “hating” Greydon. I said neither that nor anything that could be reasonably interpreted as that.)

Rayven,

What if Greydon beat up a young woman, how would your vigilante justice feel then? If he had a legitimate case, the law will deal with it which is extra reason to think that he was in the wrong.

How would you feel if you had to do business with a client that was bigger and stronger than you, and had put business partners in the hospital when he got upset? That’s how the mob works, and that very real threat of physical violence is not healthy, it isn’t moral, and thankfully it isn’t legal.

Kelly, I’m not going to bother bickering with you..your boyfriend was the one beaten up, I can understand how you must feel and I will not keep arguing with you. You feel the need to vent some of that rage…go ahead and vent.

Adrian, I understand your perspective…I even understand Boxer’s. I did not say Greydon should have beaten Brian up…I stated that I probably would have done the same thing under the same circumstances. Sometimes crooks do deserve an ass-whooping…and yes, we are not supposed to do such things…so yes, I would have landed in jail and I would have accepted the consequences of my decision…just as Greydon has done.

I’ll have to be on a lookout for all the disgusting people, atheist and theist alike, who delight in the physical violence visited up on Brian Sapient.

Actually sometimes violence does solve things, as unpopular as that position is. I hate to admit it myself, in fact. But sometimes some people do need to get the shit kicked out of them before they stop acting like complete assholes. They just don’t seem to get the message otherwise.

In Brian’s case, however, I see someone who has his head so far up his own ass no amount of ass-kicking could possibly straighten him out. All it does is drive his head further up.

“Somebody needs to set their personal OPINION aside and use reason and evidence to decide–not emotion”

That’s so true Kelly.

Anyhow you said this on another forum
“Yeah–I was there about 2 seconds after it ended while Brian was still getting up and I personally spoke to August Brunsman and Ashley who were in the room and listened to the police take their report and went to the hospital with Brian. I think I know the story asshole.”

You think you know the story… but you don’t, you were not an eye witness. Your take of events are based on what Brian told you. You never actually said you were an eye-witness, but you presented facts as if you were and harassed others holding them to a higher standard than your self.

Anyhow we don’t have Greydon’s side, and we won’t because he’s smart enough to STFU. Sapient on the other hand, is telling the world about your ex-husband with bi-polar disorder who according to him beat you. Kelly, how can you approve of him airing your dirty laundry.

I’m a frequent poster on this site, but I’m hiding my name for fear of people calling me a racist. Someone could probably figure out who I am from my previous postings, but whatever.

Greydon, although seemingly intelligent and educated as evidenced by his rap songs, grew up in Compton. Areas like that, dominated by black gang culture, breed violent people. He may have left and went to the military and has clearly educated himself significantly. But apparently, the social mores of his upbringing haven’t left him.

Anonymous, there’s good evidence that Graydon has a diagnosed mental illness, for which he wasn’t taking meds at the time, and which could easily have led to his violent outburst.

So, totally apart from arguments about the validity of your theory: why bring in other hypotheses at all, when there’s already a solid explanation backed up by facts?

I’ve thought this through a bit more over my evening workout, and I’ve decided to back off a bit from my previous statements. I’ll withhold personal judgment and defer to the authority and expertise of the courts. If Greydon is found guilty of assault, then he’s a disgrace to the atheist community and needs to quietly disappear into obscurity as quickly as possible.

And if it’s true that Brian is ripping people off (something I’d not heard before this kerfuffle, and again, will withhold personal judgment on), then he is a disgrace to the atheist community and needs to disappear into obscurity.

And if they’re both guilty, then they’re both disgraces. Brian’s disgrace would not absolve Greydon of his disgrace.

“And if they’re both guilty, then they’re both disgraces. Brian’s disgrace would not absolve Greydon of his disgrace.”

That’s fair comment. Both people should be ashamed.

The only point I’m trying to drive home is that like you said Brian’s disgrace does not absolve Greydon (though in a court it will be considered as mitigating circumstances) , Greydon’s disgrace shouldn’t absolve Brian. The dude at the very least according to his own statement neglected to ship out CDs people paid for for 2 months. And Brian’s statement, his only explanation was that it was too hard (to mail out CDs once a week @ 1500% profit).

Keep in mind also we are talking, at least according to Kelly, a charge of “minor assault” which is a misdemeanor in most states. We don’t know how serious the assault was, we don’t have photos or doctors reports, only that he didn’t need blood. We don’t know if Brian’s nose was broken.

“@IGExpandingPanda: Having the police’s reports first-hand is as close as you could ask anybody. The police had all the witnesses’ stories, and they still only hauled off Greydon. Shouldn’t that say something to you? You are an asshole. That’s good evidence that what she’s telling about what the witnesses said are true and you know it.”

I could be an asshole… but there are some things in Kelly’s account that don’t hold water. Like for example the claim it was an unprovoked attack. Unjustified yes, but there was serious provocation. It wasn’t an act of random violence. That’s the problem using a general dictionary for legal terms.

The fact of the matter is, she wasn’t there, and has some serious personal bias. You can call me an asshole until you are blue in the face… it won’t change those facts. We still don’t have Greydon’s side, and we won’t because he was smart enough to issue an apology and shut up about a pending legal matter.

He was charged with a minor assault, a misdemeanor in most states. He’ll get his day in court. She’s and Brian are presenting it like it’s something more, you know broken bones, actual bodily harm. Truth is I don’t know the extent of Brian’s injuries… but I do know Brian is trying to dodge the issue of not shipping the CDs for two months.

There are some other things in this response i’m not going to touch because they are hardly relevant to this discussion.

But needless to say, listening to accounts after the fact ISN’T THE SAME AS BEING THERE. You know it, I know it. Kelly should have expressly said, according to SOMEONE ELSE’S eyewitness testimony.

“Finally, think about this, shitbrick: they have kids. ”

Yes they do… Brian has 1, Kelly has 3. Brian was nice enough to tell us Kelly was married to a bi-polar man who beat her behind closed doors. Tell me, did I did to know this. I can’t help but to wonder if this chronic abuser has custody of her kids. But this is beside the point, Kelly has a job. Sapient does not. But sapient got $208,000 for his house, so the dude isn’t hurting. Plus he has t-shirt sales, room rental to cover the mortgage..etc..etc.. He might have to downgrade his webhosting to cover medical expenses, but after losing Greydon this wouldn’t be a burden, and he might get a properly configured webserver to boot.

The reason why I know this is because Brian is doing every thing in his power to play off emotion to get sympathy. I’ll send the dude a get well card soon, but really… getting punched in the face does not equal domestic violence. sorry. It was wrong… unjustified, criminal.

The only thing I can ask of any of you is to be honest, be factual, and don’t leave out important details… like not being an eye witness or painting someone as a wifebeater who isn’t married. But if I was in Greydon’s shoes, I’d send him a registered letter asking for arbitration, as after the bullshit with not shipping CDs for 2 mouths, I too would want to punch the guy in the face. That doesn’t make me an asshole, that makes me human.

So Mike lives here too? Shit, news to me. Apparently the blog-tards are also lying about who lives here and who doesn’t. There are four adults who live in this house, three of which have jobs outside of RRS to support themselves; Lori has her own career which she works sometimes more than 40 hours a week for to help support bills because the RRS just does not do it.

I’ll tell you what IGExpandingPander, you can become a voice in atheism (not for atheism) and get big, get death threats, and see if, after some whacked out Christian discovers where one of your kids goes to school at, you can give out YOUR financial records and personal information so that other religious nutjobs can come and snatch them up because some douchebag wanted to be an internet nitwit and couldn’t mind their own damn business.

Moron. You should be going after the real threat – theism. If you’re too stupid to think critically beyond blog posts from haters who also, apparently, can’t think critically, you don’t belong as part of a community who espouses reason over emotion. Clearly you cannot use a level of reason necessary to function beyond a high school capacity.

Rook, Panda didn’t make the comments about RRS squelching the drug addict rumors by posting financial records and personal info…that was me…you know, the evil, uncaring bitch who bought you college books back before I got to know Brian and stopped hanging with you guys. Up until now I have not had any problem with you or Kelly..in fact, I’ve never even spoken to Kelly before now…my problem has been with Brian…and he knows why. I know how dishonest and unethical he is….so quite frankly, I will assume he’s full of shit and spouting more lies until I see proof otherwise.

I didn’t really expect y’all to take drug tests or post personal data…for more than one reason…not only would it put your families at risk, but quite frankly, I believe the rumors and it’s my opinion that Brain and perhaps a few more of you are drug addicts. If y’all do take drugs but can’t seem to afford to mail off the CD’s people paid for, I seriously doubt you’d be agreeable to posting financials. It wasn’t a serious suggestion..it was designed to make a point and to incite a reaction.

Can I prove Brian or any of you do drugs? Hell no, I’m just being honest and admitting that I lean towards believing those rumors. Would I post blogs spreading those rumors? No…I was trying to make a point here that people should stop believing what y’all are posting without seeing proof. Your groupies are nothing more than a cult….and it disturbs me to see them accept everything y’all say as if it’s accurate and truthful.

(BTW…you might want to ask yourself who it was Brian placed the blame on when he was first confronted about the unmailed CD’s.)

Hell, just take it like we do in the great game of hockey.

You get angry, you throw down the gloves, take a few swings at each other. get back up, and find a newfound respect for the guy you just rumbled with. 5 minutes in the box. You get free. Get back to the game.

Sometimes two guys just got to throw down. it happens.

“So Mike lives here too? Shit, news to me. Apparently the blog-tards are also lying about who lives here and who doesn’t.”

Actually that would be Sapient rook. Perhaps he was making a joke, but I’m willing to admit when I’m wrong, if Mike doesn’t live with you, he doesn’t. He lives near enough to you to host the show sometimes, and open one package. That’s still 4 adults + sapient’s kid presuming he still lives there. I don’t see there being room for 4 extra rug rats. But still… $208k for the house, what what was it, an extra $3400 from Lori?

But I’ll make sure to post a retraction on Dawkins.

“There are four adults who live in this house, three of which have jobs outside of RRS to support themselves”

This is some serious entitlement Rook. You want to be full time activists then? Ok… what do you actually do other than host a web site, do a little radio show, write bad porn, and blog? Nothing wrong with making a salary with activism, but I ask this question often, what does the RRS do?

“I’ll tell you what IGExpandingPander, you can become a voice in atheism (not for atheism) and get big, get death threats, and see if, after some whacked out Christian discovers where one of your kids goes to school at, you can give out YOUR financial records and personal information so that other religious nutjobs can come and snatch them up because some douchebag wanted to be an internet nitwit and couldn’t mind their own damn business.”

But here’s the kicker. Sapient gives out his personal information, gives out Kelly’s personal information. Hell Kelly told Radar where she worked. I’m empathic but that was pretty dumb.

That being said, you want to be donation based but want no accountability. Fair enough, don’t file for 501(3)c. But when people ask what you do, you should tell them. That being said… The actual expenses of the RRS near as I can tell are the website. Sapient wants $11,600. Dream on. You guys get about 25mesages/day near as I can tell.. so $10/month should cover it, perhaps $50 or $100 for virtual or co lo. You’re buying servers way too often, the only explanation is you want to start your own hosting business and want to foot the bill with donations. But you don’t get something for nothing… and no one in their right mind will pay to support the RRS freedom from work crusade. You need to do something… what do you do? You want money, where will it go. Giving Kelly two weeks off work? If you pulled that from the server fund that’s embezzlement dude. And offering to funnel money through a 501(3)c organization (Freethought Society of Greater Pennsylvania). Don’t know if that’s close to being legal.

If you can’t even be bothered to ship out CDs once a week… why do you think people will give you money if you don’t meet your commitments?

As far as your private lives… businesses have no expectation for privacy. You have my sympathy, but BS and Kelly shouldn’t broadcast their dirty laundry. Rational adults know this.

As for dealing with fundies, I hear you. It can be a pain. But near as I can tell you’re not out in the streets protesting pedophile priests, fighting legislation that that threatens the barrier of church and state. In fact, I don’t know what you do, you don’t say. It seems like you sit in your bunker and talk a big talk… but when it comes down to real work… you can’t be bothered to mail CDs once a week.

Have you ever confronted fundies at abortion clinics? Have you ever said point blank “Are you willing to to pay for the birth and adopt this kid? No, GTFO”.. The truth is you have no idea what I do, my ideals or goals. You are presuming you are better than me. You could be right. I DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU DO, YOU WON’T SAY.

As for your business, you can’t construct a website using Drupal. That’s sad. And you guys want over $10,000 for the privilege of sitting on your cans and yapping online? No! Learn the trade, do the work, get paid. Nothing wrong with web hosting, none of you can script or make a diagram and execute it.

“Moron. You should be going after the real threat – theism.”

Nice suggestion if the proposition were true. Theism isn’t the problem. Theism is just, at best, a false archaic idea. Think you are going to rid the world of theism? Look in the newspaper… people still check their horoscopes… and not just working joes… heads of state. Rots of Ruck.
Theism isn’t the problem. The problem is dogmatic narcissistic douchebags that amass power by blind followers and discourage free thought and expression. This is Jerry Farwell, this is Kent Hovind. This is Brian Sapient. In fact, the only real difference between Brian Sapient and Kent Hovind, was the fact that Kent Hovind was good at what he does.

Look at your self. Always attack, never defend. You are being as dogmatic about your crusade as the leaders of Scientology. Sapient is the threat to freedom from religion, and the sooner you wake up and smell the fucking coffee the better.

“apparently, can’t think critically,”

You mean, I don’t give the the Ayatollah of atheism unquestionable trust and loyalty. That’s what you mean, and it’s a compliment… I ain’t dogmatic. I am not a joiner, but there are a few groups I support.

“you don’t belong as part of a community who espouses reason over emotion”

You sir, are a co-founder in the tree house cult. Reason over emotion? You attack me because I am critical of your leader (I love the leader the leader is love, when I’m not with him, I feel like a schlub). You didn’t address the claim, you went for weak ad hominems. Is that your adopting reason?

The moment you close you mind to criticism, the moment you think you’re always right, you’re never wrong you know what you got? DOGMA. And guess what… you might as well be a cult. Use some critical self reflection, fix your self before you tilt at windmills.

The best way IMHO to prove to the Christians that being an atheist is by being a better Christian as an atheist. Be a citizen of earth, not pseudo-cult leaders in your own little empire. Do some charity work, work in a soup kitchen, volunteer in the community. Do some damn work for a change.

“Clearly you cannot use a level of reason necessary to function beyond a high school capacity.”

Rook… you only graduated from high school, so did Sapient. Kelly might have some community college under her belt, but it doesn’t show. Sapient is unemployed, you work part time in a book store, and Kelly is a stripper. Respectfully NONE of you are functioning beyond a high school capacity. Sapient’s spelling is the real kicker, not that I’m any good my self… but please he’s at a 4th grade level.

Rook… go back to school. Get a degree… get some grants to do the work you want to do. Don’t beg for $20,000 worth of books, go to your local ivy league university library (U Penn). Get some basic writing courses under your belt. Publish papers in peer reviewed journals. Pay attention to the criticism… take it on board and improve your self. You’ve got an interest in an esoteric field, go for it man. Don’t be an e-begger.

But here is my so called unreasonable analysis.
1) Sapent fucked up
2) Greydon fucked up
3) Greydon was smart enough to STFU, and apologize
4) Sapient isn’t man enough to admit he made a mistake. .
5) The squad wants a ton of money but refuses to be accountable in any way, nor spell out what that money is being used for.

If I’m wrong on point 4 & 5, prove it. Be responsible adults. Set goals… Meet them. Don’t expect something for nothing. If you live on public donations, you work for the public. Do your fucking jobs. If it’s too hard.. quit. Be accountable. be responsible. You guys screwed the pooch with Greydon, Dawkins, and certainly a few more real names in atheism are starting to see you for what you are… a bunch foul mouth pretenders who started a freedom from work club.

Man, how I love Pandas.

That was such an awesome post I can’t even think of anything to add.

Awesome.

Just wanted to see something of actual importance and relevance to our common good posted in this thread.

I’ll be charitable and assume that this is just an anonymous parody of Sapient, rather than the real deal.

This is Pavlov’s Dog checking in from http://www.rantsnraves.org again. I agree with Chad. It was a fight, or at least it should have been. It happens. All this drama about Greydon being an animal and a vicious criminal is unnecessary. My guess is that Sapient is just bad at defending himself. They should kiss and make up, and then go back to spreading their propaganda, so that future lulz may be had.

The replies to this blog post are really going places! I’m excited! 😀

I wanted to make the same point here that I made in another blog…so I’m taking the lazy road and pasting my post instead of rewording it…

There is the law…and then there is ethical behavior…sometimes the two are in conflict.

We all know the law states Greydon had no right to beat up Sapient..some believe what he did was unethical, some believe what he did was ethical under the circumstances. We will just have disagree on that one.

Brian was ripping customers off..whether he wants to blame a “volunteer” Rook and Kelly, or Santa Clause…it’s not relevant…bottom line, it was he who was making Greydon look bad by not mailing out CD’s…and when confronted he acted like a smug, arrogant, piece of shit. The letter of the law may be on his side, it may not be…but even IF it is…what he did was unethical and criminal. Each unmailed CD is a felony…it is federal mail fraud. Some think he deserved getting his ass whooped, some say his behavior doesn’t justify what happened…again, we can choose to disagree on this one.

The point is, both men committed an act that many people feel is unethical and both acts are criminal offenses. Greydon has accepted the consequences of his actions and is stepping up to the plate to receive whatever punishment society deems necessary. What’s Brian doing? Take a good look at him and ask yourself that question.

Here is one point I have not seen brought up yet, so I will…

For those of you who state that Brian’s criminal and unethical behavior does not justify what Greydon did…why have you not slammed Brian for telling the public that Greydon is bi-polar and off his meds? What he has stated is slander and just another example of how unethical Brian is. Even IF the allegations are true, it is unethical as hell to reveal another persons medical history to the public without their consent….and it could be illegal. It’s a rather gray area when it comes to individuals, but businesses and organizations can be sued for divulging such info…and since the RRS presents itself as an organization…guess what? They can be sued for releasing personal information like that.

The RRS cult seems to think they are allowed to behave in unethical and criminal ways but they don’t think anyone else should be able to…that’s a double standard.

_____________________

In closing…my take on the whole bunker shit….there may be some credibility to the fear of death threats and attacks..I have stalkers I am hiding from, so I can relate to that fear…BUT…in all honesty, my opinion is that it is just one more of Brian’s manipulations…he inflates his importance and uses the *death threats* as a way to sponge off the public and hide in his house. The truth is, he’s just a loser, Howard Stern wannabe trying to find a way to get rich without getting a real job. He wants to sit on his ass socializing online and get rich doing it…simple as that. He uses everyone he comes in contact with and he’s always scheming for ways to make a quick buck off the sheeples. The RRS really doesn’t do anything more than stir up controversy…they are more of a joke than anything else, but Brian has convinced himself and a small following that they are important. In my opinion, they have contribulted nothing but embarrassment to the Atheist community.

As for Kelly being a stripper…personally I see nothing wrong with being a stripper, I even think prostitution should be legal…BUT I will admit I ran into some seriously awkward moments back when I associated with the RRS and tried to spread the word about their TV appearances…without fail, the first thing out of everyone’s mouth was along the lines of “Oh you mean that loser guy and the stripper slut? Don’t you realize they put them on TV to purposely make Atheist look like lowlives?”….This was coming from other Atheists, not Christians…and it was hard to come up with a good response. I admit that although I don’t care that Kelly is a stripper, I found myself wishing she worked in a more socially acceptable profession.

There are many people who have devoted their lives to the Atheist cause, if you want to call it that, and it does make me sad that they are ignored by the networks. The Networks know what draws viewers…that’s why they chose Brian and his crew for those spots…and Brian and the RRS don’t seem to understand that being chosen was not a compliment. They just don’t get it. They were chosen because they make us look bad.

Alexandra,

I think that it would be a good idea to keep your ideas regarding drug use and the RRS to yourself; you have provided no evidence whatever to substantiate those claims. As an aside, I note that you have always had an inflexible ethical code which seems to go: “what I do is ethical and what I don’t do is therefore unethical”. This shit is not that simple; sometimes stuff that you don’t do is ethical or allowable in others’ views. You’ve always been this way. You espouse a form of polyamory and then lecture on sexual mores. It’s judgmental.

So, OK, you don’t do drugs. Other people do. That doesn’t make them immoral or unethical. It certainly does not make them drug addicts. As always, you impose your rigid moral framework on others.

I have no idea whether the RRS are indulging in drug orgies. Neither have you, and your innuendo-laden suggestions do you no good. You refer to “rumours”. State the source and be damned for it. Bring it into the open.

But don’t bring your suspicions and your innuendo to the table. They are worth nought.

And, for what’s it worth, I have a record of challenging people on rumour-mongering. I’m no friends of the RRS core; they certainly do not like me. By the same token, they at least merit that those who attack them be held to the same standards as those that others are demanding of them.

Nailler.. My name is not Alexandra.
It’s okay though, since I do consider it a beautiful name.

My point was to demonstrate that we should not spread rumors…you’re bright enough to have gotten that. No way in hell would I drag others into this mess but stating who told me Brian is an addict…that would be wrong. If they want to come forward, that is their decision to make, not mine.

I could care less if the RRS or anyone else do drugs. I think all drugs should be legalized. If someone uses drugs responsibly I have no problem with it…if they take *donations* for a cause and snort it up their nose…I start to have a problem with it. Call me a judgmental bitch for that…okay, I’m fine with that.

Yep, I’m judgmental…that’s what INFJ’s are….can’t change my core personality and would not want to. If it rubs you the wrong way, I’m sure you won’t die from it. I have the right to say whatever the hell I want to say as long as it is presented as my opinion and not published as fact…and you have the right to ignore me or gripe me out for it. The world will keep spinning.

Oh, BTW…what are you talking about when you claim I lecture on sexual mores? Are you referring to how I used to fight with the pedophiles who targeted IIDB or something else? That comment confused me.

Panda…no you weren’t being snappy…I was annoyed that Tyro seems to think Brian had the right to sell CD’s even though Greydon asked him to stop…all Tyro keeps focusing on are legalities..when truthfully, sometimes what’s legal is not what’s ethical.

Truthfully, Greydon should have protected himself legally when he chose to do business with Brian. He thought he was dealing with friends…it dissolved into a mess…the courts will have to sort all that out later.

Alexendria,

I don’t like your repetition of the drugs thing. I am very opposed to the way that the RRS conducts its business, but I think that every attack on that should be based in fact. You have raised an unproven (but possibly true) incident of drug use into drug abuse.

You have no right to make any claim of that nature without good evidence.

You haven’t even posted anecdotal “evidence”.

And, yes, back at IIDB, you tended to take the view that others of a different viewpoint to yours were outside your ethical framework. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to search there, so I cannot provide links, but you had a record of condemning people who had alternative views on playamory; for one thing.

playamory? Ummm okay…That doesn’t show any previous prejudice towards me does it?…LOL …How judgmental of you…I’m crushed, really I am.

I haven’t a clue what you’re referring to when you claim I lectured people on sexual mores, so I guess we’ll leave that behind.

Okay Nialler…let’s run with this one though…

How dare I repeat rumors about Brian being a drug addict who spends donations on drugs..You’re right…what a fucking bitch I was for saying that. I agree with you. What a really shitty thing to do…throw rumors out for the world to read without offering any proof. I’m an asshole.

Kind of like how Brian is an asshole for posting crap about Greydon being bi-polar, suffering from paranoid delusions, and being off his meds…and how none of the RRS groupies bothered to ask him for evidence.

…and that even IF it were true, it wasn’t his place to tell the world someone else’s personal business?

Oh shit! Wasn’t that my point in the first place? It was so terrible when I did it…but it was okay when Brian did it…why?

Funny how that worked out huh?

Alandria,

If I am to criticise someone it behoves me to first be free of criticism on that point.

I think that Sapient has been free with the facts and I criticise him on that basis. By the same token, I don’t think that any criticism should be levelled unless it has at least a very solid basis that can be supported. Rumours have a viral means of gaining acceptance, and the only person that I hav eseen throwing out the drugs thing is you.

WHen the Greydon thing emerged in a blog I went straight to the RRS and asked “Is this true?. I was pissed on for asking the question, but they reqlised eventually that they had no choice but to address the issue.

If you hqve vqlid reqson to question their use or their abuse of drugs, believe me, I’ll ask that question as well. As it is, I see little evidence to support what appear to me to be wild claims.

BUt if you’re going to “repeat rumours” at least have some balls about it. State your source and your own observations.

I am the veryopposite of a fanboy for the RRS, but they at least deserve a fair trial by internet.

Unattributed rumours do not count as evidence. If you are willing to defend them, then do do, but don’t give us the line that Brian’s claims about Greydon are equivqlent in scope. He is being criticised for those; people have been asking him to back them up. It is not a legitimate argument to instead offer up similarly loaded innuendo. That does not cut the mustard at all.

Raven Alejandro makes some good points and some bad points.

wow, I hope all this settles down soon. I hope Brian Sapient is doing okay and recovers soon. It is sad that it had to come to violence. that being said………we still need to hear more of Gryedon’s side. I’ve met him a couple of times and he seemed okay to me. Most of what’s out right now is RRS’s side. While I don’t wish Sapient harm of any kind, I have to say his post about the whole thing comes across as very condescending. He seems to almost make of fun of Greydon for having a “disease”. It’s that same mocking tone he uses on theists and on non-theists who disagree with him-anyone who doesn’t see things RRS’s way is deluded or retarded, as is also evidenced by some of the negative comments they’ve left on here, or how they treated people on here last December for not agreeing with them, or the false rumors they spread about Richard Dawkins. If Greydon really does have a mental disorder it’s no laughing matter and his behavior, although not excusable, is at least understandable. I have noticed RRS’s negativity seems to be making them enemies left and right and not just among the religious. (Do they really think ridicule is the best way to deal with mental illness??) And of course I’m not surprised that they are saying it was “premeditated” and threatening legal action. It seems they threaten everyone who disagrees with them with legal action. It’s almost sadly predictable.

Hopefully this whole thing will settle down.

IGExpandingPanda:

What is your real job? I’ve followed your tracks on the internet and you’ve spent a lot of time apparently here posting long winded replies:

These are timestamps just from this blog.

IGExpandingPanda:
June 12, 2008 at 11:40 pm
June 12, 2008 at 11:49 pm
June 13, 2008 at 1:26 am
June 13, 2008 at 1:52 am
June 13, 2008 at 2:02 am
June 13, 2008 at 2:36 am
June 13, 2008 at 4:32 am
June 13, 2008 at 4:40 am
June 13, 2008 at 6:01 am
June 13, 2008 at 4:27 pm
June 13, 2008 at 5:14 pm
June 13, 2008 at 5:22 pm
June 13, 2008 at 6:07 pm
June 13, 2008 at 6:37 pm
June 13, 2008 at 10:04 pm
June 14, 2008 at 8:31 pm

And from the Richard Dawkins forum:
Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:43 am
Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:46 am
Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:08 am
Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:29 pm
Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:38 am
Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:28 am
Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:13 am
Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:10 pm
Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:44 am
Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:31 pm
Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:27 am
Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:43 am
Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:15 am
Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:06 am
Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:39 am
Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:52 am
Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:15 am
Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:10 am
Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:43 am
Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:42 pm
Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:43 am
Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:48 am
Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:51 pm

And I didn’t even track the forum Rants and Raves which you went on a posting spree

What’s up with that?

“What’s up with that?”

When I grow up, I want to be just like Brian Sapient

Buy my thong!

You didn’t answer my question: What is your real job?

(What makes you think I’m a single person :P)

What do you mean by this?

Edit: included quote tags

You already started to answer my question, but you’re still hedging.

Given that you railed against Sapient for not having a real job at RRS, dontcha think protesting the Co$ is the same kind of “work”?

Given that all the personal information is on the internet regarding Sapient’s relationship status, living situation, address to his home, children status, and his gf’s line of work, why did you need to mention it repeatedly on the internet?

OK fess up: What is your real job? And by that I mean what job or income provides you the basics of living. Tell us more about what you do.

“More diversion tactics… sometimes they are almost amusing. What Panda or any other RRS critic does for a living is in no way relevant to what Brian does for a living….so not sure what your line of thinking is…”

Yes I know… but I’m trying to get them to develop a conspiracy theory on the subject. You know, speculate, defame, basically make fools of them selves as they always do. (On noes! Another Christian conspirator – Evil!)

It still would be overly obsessed with not-believing in something and their quixotic crusade. That’s what I don’t get. The last time they did something not related to atheism, that I’m aware of, was the nature sanctuary they did as a group. No useful community service (soup kitchen), museums (just a train ride away to the Smithsonian), concerts (too bad the Dead Milkmen lost their lead singer).

“I was the only one in my circle of friends who after the event expressed, “I feel bad for him.” He was someone I care about very much, and still now care very much for, no malicious intent was meant, in fact it’s just the opposite. I apologized on my site, and apologize again to those who feel I meant harm… I didn’t. I’d retract the statement but it’s too late. I also have a real hard time understanding how I could’ve been misconstrued, because the contrary (no illness) looks much worse, as far as I’m concerned. ”

Brian Brian Brian
Look at Greydon’s statement, look at your own.

It’s never too late to post a retraction, newspapers do it, and like it or not you are part of the journalistic community.

The issue isn’t mental illness… the issue is you want to believe Greydon is mentally ill, and you want the rest of the world to think Greydon is mentally ill. But wanting it doesn’t make it so. You assert that this was a factor in the incident but

1) We don’t know that Greydon is bi-polar
2) We don’t know he was “OFF HIS MEDS”
3) We don’t know if this was even a factor
4) We don’t know if Greydon is mentally ill

We don’t know these things, and it’s not your business. You are no doctor.

And none of these are at the heart of the use
1) You refused to grasp it was your fault
2) You refused to understand how anyone could think it was you selling the CDs
3) You refused to understand that Greydon had legit reason to be irate… you dismissed him as being irrational. Who wouldn’t be?
4) You refused to understand you were not respecting Greydon’s copyright… and unless you can show me a contract or bill of sale… the prerogative of making copies is the domain of the copyright holder.

IIRC on of the rules of your site is the user must have the ability to admit the possibility that they were wrong. In this case, you were. You claim it’s a community issue, but how much of this BULLSHIT could have been avoided if you did the right thing in the first place… admit you were wrong, work out your private business in arbitration, and kept the community out of it. But it’s worse than that, you threw gasoline on the proverbial fire, you did YOUR damnedest to make sure that others were aware of this and make damn sure Greydon could never work in this community again. YOU got the community involved, you wanted the community involved.

But we can learn something from this incident.

1) It’s possible to prove Greydon to blows.
2) Sapient can’t run a business.

And that’s the bottom line. If you can’t be bothered to mail CDs once a week, why do you think you even deserve to take public money? The standards any freethought organization should be higher of that of any religious group, and if I shell out $15.00 for pope on a rope… odds are I get pope on a rope.

There is no excuse for what Greydon did, but there isn’t one for what you did as well. In Greydon’s case, unless I hear otherwise, I can easily presume it was a momentary lapse of reason and he’ll get his day in court. With you, what I can only describe at attempts of character assassination, is a pattern of behavior. You did it with Richard Dawkins, you threatened to do it with Stopper and took great joy in the fact that you knew her dirty laundry, and you did it with Greydon by bringing up the prior “fight” and by saying “we have reason to believe this was premeditated”, and assert mental illness was a factor without evidence of any mental illness.

You can’t perform the fundamental task of a business, take money mail product. You can’t even manage a business well enough to verify that things are getting done for two months. You sir, respectfully, can’t do the job. If you were a honorable man, you would resign.

IGExpandingPanda, as the one that equated atheism to Hitler and Stalin (Hitler was a Christian, ignoramus/liar), you don’t get to be taken seriously anymore, mkay?

Sincerely,
Reality.

That was because he couldn’t get in contact with Greydon for months, idiot.

Don’t talk shit without knowing the real story.

You said:

“BS made a choice to settle it at the convention, not take it out side or arbitrate the issue.”

Yes, he had to settle it at the convention because he couldn’t get in *contact* with Greydon (due to some reasons that I don’t think is any of your business) at all. Period.

My point is on why BS had to settle the dispute at the convention instead of in private elsewhere.

I don’t post at RRS. Evolved Rationalist is the pseudonym I use to post on my blog.

I never refused to stop selling the CD’s, I said “I can’t promise.” This is due to the fact that CDs were being sold on 2 sites and I had no internet access to remove the info, thereby making it impossible to promise that and to have been honest about the promise. Had he said “well at least do it when you get an internet connection” I could’ve agreed to that. We did in fact stop selling the cd’s when we returned home, and have now packaged and processed all unfulfilled orders.

Also @Brian

Your explanation doesn’t wash as… the first thing you actually “did” do was complain that Kelly couldn’t stand Greydon’s face and you wanted to sell the CDs to cover your medical bills… and offered a bulk discount. $5 for 10cds.

I feel your pain, and might have considered the same thing… but you can’t pretend the first thing you did when you got home was address the Greydon situation. If you were honest… and said the first thing you addressed was paying off your medical bill… that would be fair, reasonable, and even I would be sympathetic (though we don’t know if you hit a charity hospital).

But so long as there is no contract, no bill of sale, you had no legal right to sell the CDs without Greydon’s express permission, and as a voice in atheism, it’s up to you to behave like an adult.

“he should still stop trying to play in the bigboy pool and go back to the kiddie pool. Shut the RRS down and go get a real job….or go get a real job and make the RRS what it should have been…a hobby”

What, the RRS isn’t a hobby now?

The only reason I’m critical of your statement is because the level of business Brian is doing is hobby level stuff. I presume… based on 1000-1500% profit that Sapient bought a production run of 1000 @ $1000. He would only need sell 67 CDs to break even, over a period of 4 months that he actually brothered to sell them. That would be less than 4 CDs per week. If double the cost to make, 8/week would break even. Presuming Brian was honest about having hundreds of dollars still invested, presuming he could use Google and find CD duplication.

I’m sorry but work you can do once a week… I call that hobby. He couldn’t be bothered to do the hobby.

The RRS stuff… I have NO clue what Sapient does other than run a website, and do his little show. The t-shirt and thong sales are, near as I’m aware, through a 3rd party. Near as I’m aware the only commercial aspect is the site. There is a claim of working 20 hour days… but on what I have no idea. I know they spend much time “on” the website, but they don’t seem to invest much time “in” the website. I could be mistaken, I don’t know what Sapient does 20 hours a day.

To me the RRS is a hobby. It’s three people who beg for money to run a website and jabber in stickam.

“My meaning was that he likes to think of it as a successful enterprise….and he wants to get rich from it.”

They do. Sapient already got $208,000 for his house out of the deal (see your blog for ED link), and they’ve got 4 people to handle the rest of the mortgage (last time I crunched the numbers $400each/month should cover it including property tax IIRC). That’s damn spiffy for less than 2 years of operation. Doesn’t pay the bills, but it sure pays.

As far as the business goes… nothing wrong with starting a nitch webhosting firm. Proactive atheists and freethinkers under Drupal…. plenty of people willing to shell out cash for hosting… but given you can get hosting for free, or for trivial amounts like $7/month… Sapient is wanting top dollar for, respectfully, a mickey mouse operation. If he was a Drupal specialist… I could see hosting on his site… and even paying for it… if I didn’t know jack about computers or html. But he doesn’t seem to know Drupal, let alone some of the fundamentals of hosting, not to speak of the business end.

Nothing wrong with earning a salary in activism. But what does the guy do?

“Brian Sapeint is a complete douche, and I laughed after reading this story. The sooner everybody forgets about him, the better.”

Well, unfortunately people are, I presume, still giving him cash, without knowing what the RRS does and where it goes. We see this situation he can’t take money and ship out products, not without screwing the pouch for two months.

“They met in private at the convention. What would ‘elsewhere’ have brought into the equation?”

Ummm… they met publicly at the convention AFAIK. At the table, where the table hit someone according to what I read. I presume it was were Sapient was selling Greydon CDs. But there is a point, you don’t conduct business publicly. It’s bad form. From what I’ve read, Sapient wanted to settle it then and there, where Greydon wanted to use a neutral arbitrator.
What I know for a fact is Brian grandstanded this dispute publicly on his form, and just about any blog talking about it, as did Kelly. I’ll have to review what Rook wrote to say if he did the same thing.

Greydon and Brian conducted business publicly at the convention. Foofoo on both of them. Not sure why Greydon did this, but I can presume that Brian was dodging Greydon’s calls. Brian made a private business matter VERY public. I can see that on his website, and any blog talking about the event. Double foofoo on him.

“It seems that Brian has created a myth about dispute where one does not exist. Greydon told Brian, Brian disputed and had no right to.”

There was a dispute. Greydon wanted Brian to stop selling CDs. Brian felt that since he still had “hundreds” invested. That’s a dispute. I know this because on Brian’s form he was talking about offering Greydon CDs at 10 for $50 to help pay his medical bills. Fair enough… but again it’s brining a private matter… accountability for medical bills, into the public.

No matter what way you look at it, there was a dispute. If there was no dispute, there would be one party with a request, and another that agrees. There wasn’t, it’s fair to call it a dispute.

Why does it matter? Well it shows us two reasons not to do business with the RRS. They lack follow through, and if the deal goes south Brian will do his best to humiliate you, and accuse you of being mentally ill.

the sad part is that some people actually were proud of RRS and respected both greydon and sapient. i used to volunteerly write articles in hip hop and atheist magazines promoting greydons music and the message of RRS in my country . Now i regret that i did that.
I am not sure why greydon punched Sapient but if money is the issue it is the saddest thing. greydon states in his songs that the message is more important than the money : “anything a label can do i can do for my self” “Money is the root of all evil and ” “they’re afraid of losing money. honestly i don’t give a damn..keep your money…”. it seems however that this is not the case and that people are willing to jeopardize their common goals for money. I will probably still listen to greydons music but I can not promote it to the atheist community anymore. the older generation of atheists dislikes rap because of the religious lyrics mixed with violence. for example 50cent has a big cross around his neck and at the same time talks about shooting and beating people up. when i heard greydon i was proud to promote rap but now its just the same old story. this is even worse because this happened at the World Humanist Congress and the fight gives atheists and humanists, who are mostly pacifists, a bad reputation.
however if greydon truly is suffering from a mental illness i wish him a quick recovery as i do to brian regarding the physical damages.

regards,

a disappointed atheist hip hop fan