Shooting the Quran

There are atheist jerks just like there are theist jerks.

I’d rather no one shot at any books whatsoever. I mean, why waste the paper?

But seriously, just because someone, atheist or not, doesn’t subscribe to a given belief system doesn’t mean they should blatantly provoke its followers by shooting its holy text. Engage them in discussion, sure, but shooting at the Quran will do nothing, but anger Muslims. It’s destructive, and not productive, which is why it isn’t justified.

You could say the soldier had every right to do what he did.

Not necessarily.
Military law may not be the same as civilian law in this instance.

As others have pointed out, he’s there to do his part to advance American military efforts toward stability. He has failed, utterly, in doing this.

This is like the head of a lobbying group telling people not to vote. Sure, it’s within their RIGHTS to say those words….

And count me among the number of people who think that destroying books is a bad thing to do.

I hope he’s not an atheist. If he is, he’s a pretty foolish one.

I don’t think it was an idiotic thing to do. The Quran doesn’t deserve any respect. It’s a religious text that motivates so much backwardness and hatred. The only idiotic part of it was the fact that it might incite violence. Good thing those Muslims are civil right? We can really “engage them in discussion”. Are you fucking serious Milena?

So Unbrainwashed,

Can you provide us with a rational analysis of why this is anything but idiotic?

Maybe list the pros and cons of what he did? Weigh them against each other?

I think the guy’s an idiot. The only pros I can see are: it probably felt good when he did it.

Some cons: He has raised tempers in a violent region, made more enemies for the US, and put human lives in danger. He has fueled emotion regarding religious conflict and cultural differences, which is absolutely counterproductive to rational thinking and progress.

If he is an atheist, and this becomes widely known he’s also done his part to make atheists more hated in America.

Of course, he doesn’t represent all atheists, and of course, no one is justified in grouping us all together. Too bad this is the real world, and that’s exactly what will happen.

Anyway, I’d like to hear the good that has come from his actions– maybe I overlooked something.

Drew: “If he is an atheist, and this becomes widely known he’s also done his part to make atheists more hated in America.”

I don’t think that he need be an atheist for religionists to label this an “anti-religious, atheist act”. More fuel for their paranoid fires.

Statistically, he’s less likely to be an atheist than he is to be a Protestant Christian. I also think that this sort of action is more likely from a christian (the lower case is not a typo) than from an atheist, simply because a christian would be more likely to focus on the Qu’ran as representing the “wrong religion” as the cause of the strain of duty in Iraq.

I think that he should have shot a picture of Bullsh with Rummy and Cheney.

The Unbrainwashed,

I am serious. I see nothing wrong with at least trying to talk things out rather than taking the gun out immediately.

Besides, your view of Muslims seems quite stereotypical. Do you believe that what you see on CNN is an accurate representation of Muslims as a whole? Yes, there are extremists, and unfortunately they do get more air-time than moderates. And of course there are huge cultural differences between the Middle East and America. But no common ground will be reached by shooting the Quran, or bombing the place.

And saying that discussion wouldn’t work without even trying it seems pretty weak to me. If you don’t already interact with Muslims in your social circle, you could give that a go, at least, and see if they’re all uncivilized. Sure, they’re not necessairily representative of Muslims living in the Middle East either, but it’s a better starting point than not talking at all.

The Quran is just a fucking book. People should get over themselves.

Meh, he’s only an idiot for getting caught. Dumbass should have collected the silly book after shooting it full of holes and then burt it in the privacy of his fellow soldiers.

A) I can’t believe that no one else has brought this up, but he probably didn’t know it was a quran. He said he didn’t, and that seems very likely – it’s not only a different language, it’s a different alphabet. Most likely it was just some book in a language he couldn’t read to him.

B) While I’m generally not in favor of destroying books, destroying one single volume in not the same as holding a public book burning to destroy all books that conflict with certain ideas. It’s not on the same level.

C) Even if he did know, compared to the kinds of things he has probably seen while serving in Iraq, it seemed like the very minor infraction that it was. Even compared to what we see in the sanitized news footage, it was nothing.

D) Was it thoughtless? It seems so from his remarks, but blowing off steam is rarely a thoughtful experience. If his feelings were such that it was a choice between shooting a book and shooting a person, it wasn’t a stupid thing to do at all. Other soldiers have made the opposite choice.

F) This has been completely blown out of proportion to respect the ‘sensitivities’ of the muslim world. Cultural sensitivity works both ways, and I don’t even see them trying. I see them rioting over cartoons of Mohammed, and riots are a lot more indicative of general public sentiment than any one person’s actions. The muslim world doesn’t even seem to want to try to understand the idea of free speech. It’s high time they got used to hearing it, even if they don’t want to embrace it for themselves.

G) Don’t even get me started on the not-really-religious-but-still-really-ugly aspects of their society. A culture where it’s acceptable to kill a woman who was raped because she somehow shamed the family is NOT a culture that is entitled to point a lot of fingers or swoon over their hurt feelings.

H) Deciding he’s probably or even possibly an atheist seems way ahead of the evidence. How about we just say we have no idea of his religious affiliation and whether it motivated his actions? At least until we know something.

I) It would have been a lot smarter to bury the evidence.

Reynvaan, I think you have misinterpreted what I was trying to say, so let me restate it.

We are bending over backwards to be sensitive, but I haven’t seem much evidence that it is doing any good, and it may even be counterproductive. Even after the apology, they are continuing to have hissy fits over one stupid book. It just doesn’t appear to make any difference to them that we have explained and apologized ( and not one of those fake apologies either – a full-on ceremonial apology). And while demanding that we respect their ways, they don’t extend the same privilege to us – which to me looks like a power play. I’m not seeing that letting them play us, if that’s what they are doing, will benefit either them or us, and may only lead to them becoming even less willing to make an effort to get along with other cultures.

I think in the end that it’s far more important that we be true to our ideals, such as free speech or respecting human life more than a book, than to abandon those ideals in the effort to tiptoe around a culture that doesn’t seem to care if we are trying to play nice or not.

Of course, not invading Iraq in the first place would have been the best way to accomplish that, but it’s Bush’s mess and we’re stuck with it. I don’t see any happy ending to any of this. With thousands dead and a country in ruins to put it in perspective, why are we even talking about one stupid little book? It shouldn’t even be an issue.

Hmmm…….

He shoots the Quran and gets in trouble. I guess I should stop wiping my ass with the Bible. Seriously, when your in the middle of the desert and you get all those Gideon’s Bibles handed to you….makes great pocket paper. Read it for laughs, then wipe dat ass.

I suppose it really depends on the situation. All in all it can’t bring any good as you say, but he could’ve had some sort of personal reason for doing this, such as the death of a buddy, that drove him over an edge in anger.

As you can imagine these things can lead to many more deaths due to the anger amongst the offended, and that is the main concern from the military point of view.

I hate the term ‘political correctness’, but I don’t know what else to call it, so I’ll just say that I’m only using it to refer to the over-the-top parts, not the common decency and good manners that was all we ever used to need.

The biggest loss from the whole political correctness movement was a sense of proportion.

It’s just plain gone.

On the one hand, we have thousands dead and a country in ruins, and on the other hand we have a book with bullet holes in it, and it’s the latter we have to be sensitive about. Where’s the sense of proportion there?

Now Jen has written

Perhaps we don’t have a history of Honor Killings, but we have plenty of disgusting ways we disrespect women. For instance, how many prostitutes are killed in America every year while their killers are never found/ given a slap on the wrist? How is it that getting women drunk and exploiting them sexually is not only legal, but a popular video series?

I usually agree with your posts, Jen, but this time I think you are way off base.

On the one hand, we have “Girls Gone Wild”, and on the other we have dead women murdered by their own families. These things are not even close to comparable, but so many people can’t even see that anymore (or maybe just pretend they don’t) because we are all being so very sensitive about cultural differences. It’s a ridiculous comparison. Where is the sense of proportion?

No, we aren’t perfect, and I live every day with the crap this society dishes out to women, but at least the women here usually live to fight another day. And they can drive. They can go out without a man to keep an eye on them. They can have a job. They can enjoy the sun in light clothing. They can go out on dates. They can decide who they marry. They can be involved in politics to change the way things are. They have a level of freedom to make decisions in their lives that the women of the middle east don’t even dream of anymore, even though they had them for a while in some places. The situations are so NOT comparable.

Even if those ‘girls’ here do wonder when that video will come back to haunt them.

We all know it’s stupid of Muslims to overreact to this.

The question is, did the guy’s actions address this problem? Was there any practical benefit at all?

It’s not about PC. It’s a question of: did he consider the practical outcomes that his actions were likely to cause.

This is a great forum to talk about how stupid Muslims are, but that doesn’t make the soldier’s actions any smarter. Unless you think his action was a principled stand that may have positive results, I don’t know how you can say it was a smart decision.

A stupid thing to do…but any over-reaction to this would be just as dumb as the Mohammed Bear thing: any attempt by Muslims to put humans’ lives at risk as a result of someone putting a bullet through their special book, that’s foolish and horrific.

Has anyone considered the Muslims’ perspective? Has anyone imagined how it would feel if someone has shot at something that symbolizes what you hold most sacred? And then claimed that it was “nothing,” “no big deal?”

They can shoot at Bibles all day long; you wouldn’t see Americans rioting in the street. They can burn the American Flag and it *might* be newsworthy over here. They can burn a picture of a particular soldiers family, but that’s not going to enrage a whole lot of people.

You could say the soldier had every right to do what he (I assume it’s a he) did. It’s just a book, not a person. It’s akin to burned a flag. There’s no real victim.

You don’t seem to be taking into account that this happened in Iraq and not in America. The laws are different in Iraq. How did you decide that you know what a person’s “rights” are in Iraq? If its illegal in Iraq to burn a flag or shoot at the Koran does an Atheist have the right to ignore the law just because he is an Atheist and is an American?

I have been around the world a few times and it always amazes me to see Americans expecting that American law and American social customs apply everywhere.

I’m frankly shocked by some of the down-right stupid and insensitive statements I’m reading here. Claire, you have a distinctly insufficient imagination to not realize what an incident like this really means. Some of you folks need to make Muslim friends; perhaps that will snap you out of whatever world you’re living in. Thank you Andrew for your service and your insights.

Some of you folks need to make Muslim friends

No thanks. Just as I wouldn’t want to be “friends” with anyone associated with the Westboro church, I don’t feel the need to be “friends” with anyone of the Muslim religion. I’m not being racist here; I wouldn’t mind being friends with non-religious/agnostic/christian/jewish/buddist people of Arab desent.

“Why is it that when a woman is raped, her sexual history becomes part of the case?”

Forgive me for going completely off topic here. I agree that what you say is historically true, but I thought that laws had been introduced that render such a line of defence inadmissable in court.

Otherwise I agree that women are not always treated as well as they deserve in the US. However, you have mostly listed failures of the system to protect women, or First Amendment loopholes in the case of the plethora of objectionable videos. I see a distinction between failures and loopholes versus the deliberate devaluation of women under law.

Someone did have a good point about not tarring all Muslims with the same brush. (Equally, not all Christians are Falwellians.) However, Islamic culture, Islamic law, and Islamic religion are more closely tied in the Middle East than are culture and religion in the West. Iraquis have valid secular reasons for resenting having their country invaded, but I think that we cannot ignore the fact that acts such as shooting a Qu’ran provide fuel for political Anti-West hatred-mongering.

What would be the reaction if a member of the Iraqi police (let’s say a Muslim) used a bible (King James version) for target practice? Assuming he’d paid for it.

That’s beside the point.

If you stepped on my toes and I cry out in pain, would you say to me, “You’re over-reacting… I wouldn’t cry out if someone stepped on my toes.” ?? What you would do in the same situation has little relevance to me and my swollen toes. Your denial and insensitiveness could actually infuriate me enough to kick you in the shin.

The only thing the Koran is good for is to be riddled with bullets since it was written by a false prophet.

I’m frankly shocked by some of the down-right stupid and insensitive statements I’m reading here. Claire, you have a distinctly insufficient imagination to not realize what an incident like this really means. Some of you folks need to make Muslim friends; perhaps that will snap you out of whatever world you’re living in. Thank you Andrew for your service and your insights.

I agree. if he had done this in America that would be one thing, but doing it in a war zone like Iraq is just asking for trouble.

No thanks. Just as I wouldn’t want to be “friends” with anyone associated with the Westboro church, I don’t feel the need to be “friends” with anyone of the Muslim religion. I’m not being racist here; I wouldn’t mind being friends with non-religious/agnostic/christian/jewish/buddist people of Arab desent.

right, b/c all Muslims are bad. how is this any different from Fundie Christians who would never consider being friends with an atheist? It isn’t. congrats on sounding just like them.

I agree with everything Greta Christina said.

He was yanked out of Iraq for doing something stupid … deliberately acting to enrage people in a country the Army is trying to pacify.

His action endangered other soldiers.

US military personnel were instructed to not deliberately mock their religion while in country, simply as a matter of strategy. He disobeyed a lawful order, so he gets punished.

Greta Christina said,

To then get put out because, hey, we apologized for this contemptuous insult to their culture, we’re bending over backwards to make up for it and why are they still having hissy fits about one stupid book… it’s utterly missing the point. It’s beyond missing the point. It’s as if a Mafia thug brutally beat someone halfway to death and pissed on their face… and then the Mafia boss apologized to the victim for their face getting pissed on, and got offended when the apology wasn’t accepted with gracious good humor. It’s lacking in a certain, shall we say, sense of proportion.

What the hell is up with the lack of reading comprehension around here? That totally misses my point, as most people did. To use Greta Christina’s analogy, it’s like the Mafia boss pissing in the victim’s face, and the victim getting upset about the pissing and not accepting the apology and EVERYBODY completely ignoring that the beating happened, like it didn’t exist.

Why the hell is the victim bitching about the inadequate apology for the pissing instead of demanding an apology for the beating and appropriate recompense for that? Why is the Mafia boss pretending like the pissing is what deserves an apology and the beating doesn’t matter?

Where is the sense of proportion in everybody focusing on the insult and completely ignoring the real injury? It’s like both sides are buying into the other side’s insanity.

Although I’m beginning to think that around here it’s the lack of reading comprehension that is the bigger problem.

Apparently, this time “they” wrote letters and held a peaceful protest in which banners were held and slogans were shouted. If those people hadn’t been in middle eastern dress and waving arabic banners, would this have deserved the name “riot” or “hissy fit?”

Thank you, Monkeymind. Americans are virtually brainwashed into seeing middle easterners as barbarians. So much so, that we can wage a campaign of slow genocide and mass relocation against the people of Iraq, who’ve done nothing to us, and then conclude that THEY are the ones prone to violence and overreaction when they dare to raise the smallest of objections.

Where is the sense of proportion in everybody focusing on the insult and completely ignoring the real injury?

I see that you’ve yet to learn anything from all the good posts on this. Perhaps I can clarify this for someone with such formidable powers of “reading comprehension.”

After all the suffering and death, destruction and humiliation undergone by the people of Iraq due to our meddling, doesn’t this shooting of their holy book just symbolize for them, in the most succinct and forceful way, the contempt in which Islam and its culture is held by the West, and especially America?

Did’nt God (Allah), the omnipotent, the omniscient and the omnipresent see this man shooting the holy book called Quran? Is God capable of stoping this soldier man from shooting the holy Quran, which is in effect, ridiculing the “HOLY SCRIPTURES”? Why did’nt he do it? I don’t think he was watching what the man was doing. If he was , then God must be stupid. Very stupid.