Matt Taibbi Goes to a Christian Retreat

Not being part of that world, I don’t know how prevalent this kind of scenario is. If what we encounter online is any indicator, I’d have to assume it’s fairly common.

Naturally, “Liberal” evangelicals tell us that we only focus on the extremists, and that they don’t represent all evangelicals. I see the same sort of denial in the Jewish world. For decades, the ultra-Orthodox (the black hat and coat crowd) have been taking over Orthodox Judaism. The more assimilated Modern Orthodox react in much the same way as do “Liberal” or “Progressive” evangelicals; they’re embarrassed, they prefer to ignore the problem and they insist that the fundies are a minority – even as fundamentalist attitudes infiltrate their own ranks.

I must say that Taibbi’s assessment of their mind states is just about the most insightful I’ve ever encountered – You make this journey precisely to experience the ecstasy and Once you reach that place with them, you’re thinking with muscles, not neurons. Absolutely spot-on. I keep saying it here – it’s a form of addiction. It needs to be viewed – and dealt with – as such.

I can’t say much about the first excerpt; I’m no expert on the modern Christian man.

Oh, yes, growing up Christian, it was considered quite masculine to be able to weep on command.

I found it disturbing and superficial. I also thought that my visceral reaction was Satan trying to lead me astray.

questions are discouraged or at least not made room for, so most of these people tend not to voice their disagreements with what is being said from the pulpit, but they are there, and I’ve been discovering that there are more of them out there than most pastors realize.

I find this to be true as well. I had the same thoughts as I was reading the post.

And then there’s churches like mine where we actively encourage discussion and diversity of opinions, and we are also part of a growing movement.

Mike, I’m glad that you are doing this with your church. I know it’s difficult for any leader to have his/her followers constantly challenging what they say. My pastor encourages diversity as well, but he is often criticized for his lack of firmness (as they see it). In any group, the peers can be more of a problem than the leadership. He often finds himself taking the hit to protect the freedom of expression in our church, not to mention the disapproval and criticism from other pastors.

I don’t know if I’d be able to take that on a regular basis.

As you say Hemant, questions are discouraged or at least not made room for, so most of these people tend not to voice their disagreements with what is being said from the pulpit, but they are there, and I’ve been discovering that there are more of them out there than most pastors realize

You may know more about this, Mike, but I think the pastors know people are questioning and not believing. I wonder if this is what fuels those ultra-conservative sermons; a kind of, if I say it enough they’ll believe me. And calling anyone who disagrees with them demon possessed. Just from browsing the web, I see many Christian institutions passionately against people like Rob Bell or progressive churches like yours. I think its because they know people are drawn to them, and once people enter those churches, the days of the political Christian right are over. I wonder if that fear of losing political power is fueling these types of retreats/sermons more than anything else.

A team of twenty of the world’s leading scientists wouldn’t be able to convince so much as one person in this crowd that homosexuals are not created by pedophiles.

We (Americans) are still a product of our times, and reason is a strong part of how we make decisions. It isn’t that big a stretch to imagine that at least some of the people at that service didn’t agree with the above, quoted statement.

I try not to make the same kind of absolutist asumptions about the religious that they do about atheists (and other things). It all seems rather silly, not to mention hypocritical, for an atheist to play at that level.

“I’d think he’d need to be a little more immersed in that subculture than just one weekend retreat to really make the claim that no one is doing any critical thinking at all.”

I think I would agree with this assessment. I was in this movement for many years and, obviously, I eventually summoned the necessary critical thinking skills to escape. Indeed, I believe the reason the likes of John Hagee have to rant their narrow, fideistic viewpoints from week to week is that they know very well that their congregants will just naturally lapse into critical evaluations of the beliefs if they don’t.

I’m actually EXTREMELY pissed at the ‘all homosexuals are products of pedophiles’ statement. So much so that I can hardly remember the rest of the article.

I’d like them to meet my mother-in-law’s brother: A happy, well-adjusted, intelligent, funny guy, who happens to be a homosexual in a long-term monogamous relationship (with another really nice guy). As far as I know, he was never abused by anyone. Even the merest thought that someone would suggest that a family member had done the deed or had even allowed it to happen makes me seethe; this family is the most open, giving, accepting and loving family I have ever had the honor and pleasure to meet, let alone be a part of.

In a related note, my wife an I have both hung out, talked, ate with this guy and his partner. We’ve even *gasp* hugged them and yet, our marriage still persists and our love has not been diminished at all by the fact that they are together.

I don’t have any insight into the fundamentalist evangelical Christian tradition, but for what it’s worth I have yet to hear an anti-homosexual or anti-atheist homily at a Catholic mass. There are often prayers for the unborn, but not in the form of promising damnation for abortion doctors. So while there is a strong sense of doctrine it tends to focus on charitable works and leading a good life rather than condemning others.

We (Americans) are still a product of our times, and reason is a strong part of how we make decisions. It isn’t that big a stretch to imagine that at least some of the people at that service didn’t agree with the above, quoted statement. I try not to make the same kind of absolutist asumptions about the religious that they do about atheists (and other things). It all seems rather silly, not to mention hypocritical, for an atheist to play at that level.

Hear, hear. We do have to be careful of stereotyping. And I’d also assume some of these people think independently and disagree with many of the things that are said.

That said, if a few people do think independently, what are they doing in one of these a megachurches? And why aren’t they speaking up (or leaving) when they hear things they disagree with? It’s safe to say that at least in these extreme examples, most people present are happy to be there, and agree with the pastors most of the time.

I can see why Christianity is appealing to them, in that it allows them to let go and be vulnerable for a change without being judged by the group.

I don’t think that part is such a bad thing, is it?

I certainly don’t think it’s a bad thing. I just wish that they could get in touch with their emotions without adopting a belief system that condemns everyone who disagrees with them to hell.

I think John Hagee is a certifed heretic at this stage as he denies Jesus to be the Son of God.

I’ve never heard Hagee say anything of the sort. I have heard him say that he denies dual covenant theology, the idea that Jews have a separate salvific deal with God. On the contrary, he has affirmed that he still holds that no one can get into heaven without Jesus.

I live in San Antonio, not far from the infamous Cornerstone church. It’s almost impossible not to know someone who attends its screeching hate circus…er, services.

I think it’s valid to say not everyone swallows what Hagee says whole…but it’s really difficult to remain positive when you actually hear his congregants talk about religion or Hagee. It’s “Pastor says this” or “Pastor thinks we mustn’t.” It’s not, as with some of the smaller fundie churches, “The Bible says.” The many Cornerstone members I’ve known don’t read the bible, really. They have one, of course, and will tell you what it says (according to Hagee) when it comes to general things…but they haven’t actually read it. Now all those apologetics books you see in bible bookstores? Those they have read. Cornerstone junkies are never without one.

Some of the more “studious” ones will have the apologetic with a bible opened beside it. Don’t let it fool you. They are looking to see if the reference is accurate, not the meaning of the verse (from their interpretation) or even its context. They don’t see any contradicting verses. Not ever. I played a game with one of the Cornerstone people of for every verse there’s its inverse. I won the argument, but got the distinct honor of having her deacon or whatever they call the bloody fools declare me a heretic and possibly possessed by Satan. And, after pronouncing her church’s assessment of me, she avoided me henceforth.

I don’t think y’all realize how powerful a hold this church gets over its congregants. If the church says to avoid someone–you do it. I know details of what the church “permits” for dating between single members of the church, and it’s a total control game.

You wouldn’t believe how many adults go along with these things, how many of them will swallow their doubts or questions and keep going, keep putting money in the church’s till.

That said, if a few people do think independently, what are they doing in one of these a megachurches? And why aren’t they speaking up (or leaving) when they hear things they disagree with?

My guess would be that they prefer quietly listening to some things they don’t agree with over being cast out of their community and probably even out of their family.

That said, if a few people do think independently, what are they doing in one of these a megachurches? And why aren’t they speaking up (or leaving) when they hear things they disagree with? It’s safe to say that at least in these extreme examples, most people present are happy to be there, and agree with the pastors most of the time.

My guess would be that they prefer quietly listening to some things they don’t agree with over being cast out of their community and probably even out of their family.

Right. I went to a particular “non-denominational” (but nationally organized) church through my junior-high and high-school years. The reason I started going to the church was friends from a private school that I transferred out of. I then got into the whole church thing. Went to the summer camps. But I never raised my hands during worship, because I never felt it. I really hated worship because of the way it made me feel. Now I believe everyone fakes it and deludes themselves to some extent. I’m proud to say that I never did in that regard.

So there are lots of reasons people go to church. Community and fellowship are just a couple. And some people just love their God and think the rest is “just details”.

I have found that the people most likely to leave the church were the ones who are more rational from the get go. These people either believe EVERYTHING about their religion. And if a few things don’t make sense, seem wrong, or are just obviously inaccurate, then their entire faith is legitimately called into question in their own minds. The other type think that faith and God are the important parts, and they just don’t bother with the details.

I went to see a sermon about how only God can provide a basis for morals at a local Mega-church.
The experience was similar to Taibbi’s in that there was no way or apparent desire to question what the pastor said. The pastor only talks at people. There is no intellectual exchange. There is only one person, telling all 5000 other people what to do, what to think and how to think it. The pastor told all those people that “darwintists” (whom he equates with atheists) can only believe that “Might equals right”. He had it printed on big screens and had his congregation write it out on what looked like mock-lecture notes that were handed out before the service. The message that came across was that without god, morals change and you cannot trust someone whose morals change on a whim or who thinks only along hte lines of “might equals right”. Outside of the gross misrepresentation of the theory of evolution, the congregation left likely to think that atheists have no base for morals and cannot be trusted.
To be fair, I have engaged in conversation with this pastor and am trying to help him see what his preachings are leaving people with and he is open to listening (which is impressive in itself and should be commended). We will see how all that goes…
But really, church is not about learning, in fact it is entirely unfavorable to learning as there is no way to question. Not only is there no way to question, the questioning is greatly discouraged. As Taibbi pointed out, the people at a lot of churches are there in an emotional mood, not a logical or objective one. They don’t want to learn, they want to be told they are right. Cognitive dissonance, FTW!

John “fatman” Hagee continues his rants and hatred of anything and everything. I try to tell christians that Hagee is divorced and remarried; he was committing adultery while pastoring a church; after the divorce, he married his paramour: hence, he is living in adultery (according to some christians).
Hagee does say that one can get into heaven without accepting Jesus. This allows him to bask in the approval of the Israeli government, when he brings loads of his followers and hangers-on to the Holy Land.
I once heard Hagee preach against… gluttony !! I’m not kidding. Obviously, he doesn’t have any mirrors in his house.
Please study these televangelists and see exactly what they’re like. Most of them are con artists, liars, hypocrites, often described as “the used car salesmen of religion.”