Questions for Atheists: Are You Patriotic?

Absolutely I consider myself patriotic. I love the US, despite its’ faults.

I’m patriotic in that I love America, even though I loathe certain aspects of American society (which I hope will change over time). I think our government is a great system that’s been misused by a lot of assholes over time.

Patriotism to me means appreciating my country, and appreciating it includes acknowledging its faults. I’m not going to get into those faults, because that’s not what you asked. But what really aggravates me are the redneck and neocon “patriots” who think patriotism means supporting everything the government does (unless a Democrat is in the Oval Office), stopping the Gay Agenda, and keeping the damn Mexicans out. Patriotism in their view means no room for a variety of opinions or viewpoints about things like foreign policy, religion, social values, government powers, etc.; as such, their patriotism is the polar opposite of what America is supposed to be about. It’s just a shame that these people have temporarily hijacked the government, but I have some small confidence that we’ll get back on track sometime in the next 50 years or so.

I want to serve my country. I was going to apply for the Naval Academy, but I had a spinal operation that disqualified me. Now, being in college, I have multiple paths open to me, but one I’m considering is joining the Foreign Service. I like the idea of serving America’s interests, though naturally, since I’m not an aforementioned redneck, I have no desire to put American interests ahead of other nations’ interests. I’d like it if I were able to promote global cooperation and all that jazz in the Foreign Service, but it’s not like I’d have a choice in the matter; I’d just be pushing the current administration’s agenda.

Anyway, I’ve gone on too long. To sum up – patriotism is fine, but the negative aspect that Mike talked about, which is often called nationalism, is not fine. I disagree with Mike that patriotism is always bad. But being patriotic doesn’t exclude being considerate of other nations, other cultures, and others’ needs.

I love my country (USA) and despite its flaws believe it is one of the best in the world. I love what this country has accomplished and the diversity of the people, towns, landscape, etc. I’m very lucky to be born and raised in this part of the world. So I’m patriotic in some sense I suppose.

However, it seems that the definition that Bush Co. has put on patriotism has tainted the word. The “why do you hate America” crowd seems to think that being patriotic means you can’t question the president or his policies/actions. When patriotism becomes blind loyalty is when it can (will?) become dangerous.

Honestly, I’m not the most patriotic person, and I don’t feel bad admitting it. I see patriotism as supporting your country merely because you were born there or reside there – even when your country is wrong. I just can’t endorse a country that does so many things that contradict what I believe is right. Why should I support a war I am adamantly against? Yes, I will support the troops, because they are human beings and I care about their lives, but I also care that we don’t go bombing other countries indiscriminately. I just can’t put those thoughts away and start chanting “USA! USA!”

But I feel the way about sports teams, or high school spirit. I honestly don’t understand why people have a favorite sports team. There’s very little logical reasoning in why you may like the Sox and hate the Cubs (I live in a divided family…sigh) other than that’s the team your parent liked. Seems very much like religion to me. Same with “school spirit.” I could care less if my high school sports teams won or loss, the only exception being if I had a friend on the team. Obviously I’d want them to win so my friend would be happy, but I really don’t care about pride. The only reason I mildly care if my university’s team wins is because I have to listen to every other school gloat about trouncing our ass in football (which to say the least, is annoying). If it weren’t for that, I could care less if we lost every game.

But anyway, that’s just me. I just don’t see the point in supporting something unless you have some reason to support it. If I support a candidates’ positions, I will campaign for them and be very excited as a whole. But patriotism to me is a blind following, and that is not something that I do.

Throughout my religious past as a Jehovahs Witness I was called the dead wood of society because I didn’t vote in politics. My reasons for not voting or getting wrapped up in patriotism then are similar to your view as held by your religious beliefs. However, since disassociating from that organization in favor of atheism; I do vote now regularly only because there are many admirable things that I like about this country its people and its constitution and I’ll continue to support it. I realize that my position to vote and be patriotic is arbitrary in the grand scheme of humanity but we are so far from realizing a world free from the negatives of national sovereignty and patriotism. I realize there are many countries that may extend a kinder hand regarding my atheism, however, my life is not defined solely by my atheism. I like the pluralistic framework of the United States of America and I’ll vote to keep it secular.

My working definition of patriotism is something like, “The act of being supporting of the ideals of one’s country.” I do not follow the working definition that a lot of pickup-truck-with-eagle-on-the-back-window-driving people seem to follow, which seems to be something like, “Listenin’ to Bill O’Reilly and supportin’ our troops who fight fer our freedoms in Eye-Rack.”

Since I believe that this country was founded on principles grounded in freedom and equality, even though the founders didn’t quite implement those ideals as well as I’d like, I do view myself as patriotic. Some of my patriotic duties are to participate in the government by voting, influence my government by communicating with my elected officials, and by speaking out for good and against evil.

If patriotism is the pickup truck version, then I guess I am unpatriotic.

Mike here we agree on something.

I think patriotism is too close to nationalism and therefore quite dangerous. Besides, why should I be proud to be an American? I was born here. I didn’t choose to be here. I did nothing to be proud of to be a citizen. And to be honest, lately I am ashamed of, not proud of, my country.

It makes me cringe every time I see Christian and patriotic bumper stickers on the same car. They always seem to go hand in hand. I hate to admit this because it sounds like stereotyping, but whenever I see those two kinds of stickers on the same car, I can’t help but thinking that the driver is a mindless zombie who just believes whatever his or her pastor and president says is true.

In my opinion, patriotism is not a virute.

I’m patriotic to the extent that I happen to have been born in America and continue to live here, and unless Huckabee becomes president I don’t see this fact changing any time soon. I therefore wish the best for this country and care very deeply about what happens to it and to the others who share this land with me. Being Native American also causes me to take America’s well-being personally. It is my land, after all. 😉

I am patriotic. I love my country even though it’s far from perfect. I have served in the US Air Force and after my enlistment continued to serve the military itself as a civilian for most of my adult life. I do not approve of war or aggression (I’ve been to Iraq and hate what’s going on), but I do approve of strength, readiness and defense. I approve of a military that will deploy within hours of a natural disaster, no matter what country it’s in, and lend a hand and that is prepared to defend the citizens of our own country on a moment’s notice if needed.

I’ve had the chance to live in several foreign countries and be subject to their laws. Some of those laws made a lot more sense than some of ours. But, some of them didn’t. I could have chosen many times to become a citizen of another country, but, overall, I think we have the right idea in America. I choose to stay here and try to fix the things that I feel are broken.

I’m a patriot in that I believe in the foundations of our government and will do whatever I can to support them. Including protesting and voting people out of office.

I think just about everyone here echoes my feelings in one way or another, and said it better than I can.

patriot, n. and adj.
A. n.

I. A person.

1. a. A person who loves his or her country, esp. one who is ready to support its freedoms and rights and to defend it against enemies or detractors.
In early use, as in French and Dutch, chiefly with ‘good’, ‘true’, ‘worthy’, or other commendatory adjective: cf. ‘good citizen’. ‘Patriot’ for ‘good patriot’ is rare before 1680. At that time often applied to a person who supported the rights of the country against the King and court. (Oxford English Dictionary)

Sounds like a contradictory position for anyone to be in. Are “detractors” the same as dissenters? If not than I suppose I am a patriot. I believe in the liberty, justice, and stability of a republic. I believe that the United States was once the exemplar of this most excellent and secular form of government. I also believe that the republic which I am proud to pledge allegiance to has been tarnished by decades of apathy and luxury. Our rise as a world power has made words like “liberty,” “patriot” and “republic” itself ashes in the mouths of even those that use them with evident relish.

Am I a patriot? Who am I to judge?

No man is allowed to be a judge in his own cause, because his interest would certainly bias his judgment, and, not improbably, corrupt his integrity. (James Madison, Federalist 10.)

I do see a link, Mike, although it’s more of an antithesis. I’m not a supporter of either belief or worship, and that’s what a lot of modern patriotism seems like to me: belief in something is essentially what the individual has defined it to be, and in the case of the flag-worshippers, well, the name really does say it all, doesn’t it?

I consider patriotism with the same skepticism I bring to religion. America (however you care to define it) is too big and too complicated for any person who wants to retain their sanity or self-respect to be able to say “I approve and support it all”. Yet, there are some in this country who worship America the same way they worship their god – completely and unquestioningly.

The ideals that this country was founded on? Those I support whole-heartedly, and nothing would make me happier than to see our government do so, too, instead of trying to circumvent them.

It’s also interesting that you bring up the word “tribal”, Mike, because that’s always what patriotism has always seemed like to me – an outgrowth of tribalism. The problem with tribes, of course, is that if there’s an ‘us’, there’s got to be a ‘them’, and of course, there’s got to be ways that we are different from them. Human nature being what it is, it’s only a short step from “they are different” to “they are wrong” and another short step from “they are wrong” to “they must be shown the error of their ways”.

Would I defend my country if it were attacked? Hell, yes, even small animals will try to defend their homes and families. Of course, there would have had to be an actually invasion by someone who wants to take over, and I don’t remember any of those lately. As you may have guessed by now, I don’t support the war, and frankly, I don’t support the troops either – if they choose to swear to follow the orders of someone like George Bush, they are just as culpable for this mess as he is.

I know the question asked was “explain to me how you justify being patriotic” and I’m doing the opposite, but sometimes it’s nice to see that someone does think the way you suspect they will. If you think atheists should be skeptical about patriotism, too, well, this particular one is.

One bit that puzzles me are those who love their country unconditionally and won’t hear a word against it, and at the same time, completely hate the government. Although I don’t suppose it should puzzle me – what’s one more drop of irrationality in that particular bucket?

Here are my two favorite quotes from G. B. Shaw on the topic:

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.

You’ll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.

Mike, this one’s for you, just in case you’ve never come across it. It’s from Thomas Paine:

My country is the world, and my religion to do good.

Absolutely not. I might love my country (though I can’t say at the moment I love more than the ideal of the country – which certainly does not represent its current state), but patriotism, in my mind, suggests blind, unconditional love, much like a parent’s love for her child.

Patriotism seems to me to encourage the same blind faith and willingness to follow as many/most religions. “You’re with us or against us.” Is that line spoken by the leaders of a country, or by the leaders of a religion?

I cannot hold blind allegiance to a country, a faith, or anything other than my beloved children. I must reserve the right to turn away when those things start to clash with my personal beliefs and ideas. Patriotism does not allow for such freedom of thought, but calls for its countrymen to follow in blind faith.

as an atheist, do you consider yourself patriotic?

No. As an atheist I do not consider myself patriotic. As an American I consider myself patriotic. My opinion on the very limited question of whether or not there is a supreme intelligent force is completely irrelevant to my love and appreciation of representative democracy.
In fact I resent the question.

Mike Clawson,

I am a globalist. Nations divide, it is only principles that unite. As the song said:

Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the World, than the pride that divides, when a colorful rag is unfurled.

To me, patriotism is one of the four false concepts which must fall if we humans are to overcome our pathologies:

1) God, 2) Country (patriotism), 3) Parents (children’s unlimited respect for, or parents ownership claims on their children), 4) Unfettered Free Will (free of genetic, epigenetic, and circumstantial influences and limitations).

Dennett discusses the evolutionary origins of our attachment to some of these false premises. Until we look deep into ourselves and our societies and re-evaluate these sentimental notions, we will continue to repeat the same mistakes and our ‘democracy’ will continue to be held hostage by demagogues.

I’m certainly not patriotic in the traditional sense. Like others here, I think patriotism often gets equated with nationalism, and I have a tremendous problem with nationalism. And I think it’s absurd to think that my country is the best simply because it happens to be the one I was born into.

I am patriotic in the sense that many of the principles this country was founded on — such as democracy and freedom of speech — are principles I cherish. But I’m keenly aware of the fact that, of late, my country is failing to live up to those principles in some dramatic and appalling ways. I think there’s a yawning gap between America the theory and America the practice — and in the past few years, America in practice has made me, not just “not proud,” but actively ashamed. (Iraq, Abu Ghraib, and our government’s defense of waterboarding leap to mind.) I’m not going to put on blinkers and pretend that this isn’t true. And unfortunately, that blinkering is how “patriotism” is often interpreted.

And my love for my country’s ideals doesn’t interfere with my ability to see that other countries have their advantages as well. I’m in the middle of a fascinating book, “The European Dream,” and am coming to the conclusion that many of my values are really more European than American. And I don’t see why the accident of my being born in America should make me dismiss the things — such as health care — that other countries are doing right.

And none of this has a darned thing to do with being an atheist.

Except insofar as my beliefs are not clouded by the absurd notion that America as a country is somehow favored by God.

Here’s what I want to know: as an atheist, do you consider yourself patriotic?

Your question belies a bit of a continued misunderstanding I think. Most of us don’t do much of anything as atheists. We do lots of things as people just like all other people. We can all give answers why we’re patriotic. A lot of us probably haven’t even really thought about why we’re patriotic, like most people don’t really think much about it.

It IS a bit of tribalism, really. I wouldn’t likely call myself patriotic end stop because that word can mean so many sorts of different things. But I am proud of my country, in the sense that I think it has a lot to offer and has a core philosophy legal and ethical, that I think is very worthwhile and admirable.

However, I also agree with your distaste for the extremes of tribalism that patriotism taken too far has brought us. As something of a libertarian, I’m for free trade and even free travel, and maybe someday free citizenship. I don’t think there’s any moral justification for treating people differently because of where they were born, even in most legal issues that are status quo in immigration law.

I’m not “my country, right or wrong.” I’m “my country: I want it to do what’s right, and I feel responsible for it when it does not.”

The fact that atheism is linked in this country with a lack of patriotism is simply another way in which some close minded zealot here tried to attack the non-religious. As far as I am aware no one ever concluded that Russians of the USSR were less patriotic then Americans because of their atheism.(I wouldn’t be surprised if some did claim that a lack of patriotism/god caused the fall of the USSR , since some will conclude they are the same thing.)

(In a sense you could conclude that Soviets were more patriotic then their American counterparts, since they were beholden to only the state, while the god fearing American had to split himself between god and country. Unless you believe they are one in the same of course.)

In my opinion this line of thought was brought about by the people who think they have the final word on life and how it should be lived in this country. The same problems we all face today in our blooming theocracy.

To answer the question as it was posed. My lack of a belief in Gitche-Manitou has little affect on my philosophy on patriotism, except to make me realize most if not all labels are foolish. I am not simply an American or a Caucasian. I am a Human of the planet earth no more or less special then anyone else.

So I agree with Mike on that issue. Patriotism is a harmful -Ism that should not be a position we strive for. Personally I wish to support ideas and ways of doing things because then are beneficial to all the Humans on earth not just the ones that live in the same imaginary circle of government I currently reside in.

(First up – for clarity – I’m not American)

I have no problem with being proud of your country when it’s doing things right. There are many things that I think my country does well, … and many more I think it should do better. (I have travelled overseas enough to have seen a number of other countries and I would not choose to live anywhere else but here.)

On the other hand, I think patriotism is a major cause of suffering, and I agree with the “refuge of a scoundrel” thing. Patriotism is one of the bases upon which war crimes are built; some other major ones would be racism and fundamentalism. When all three are put together, there’s little hope for anything but evil outcomes.

Patriotism where I come from tends to me much milder than in the US, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it can be dangerous.

Personally, I think of myself as a global citizen, not just the citizen of some country I happened to be born and live in. So, I’m a global patriot. Of course I’m proud when we do good here in the ol’ US of A. And I’m proud when Canada does good. And Mexico. And so on. But of course every country also does bad as well and deserves to be criticized for such actions so they can learn and do better next time.

What I don’t like about patriotism is that it seems to encourage us to think of ourselves as somehow better than everyone else. As if we Americans have some sort of special qualities that no one else has which enables us to do such great things. Bullshit. We definitely have certain advantages which not everyone else has. But put those unfortunate people in our place and they’ll be able to be just as great as us.

To me, the patriotism industry serves two function. First, to keep people from asking questions. Second, to drive the economy, not for the good of the majority of the people in this country, but for the economic elite. So most of the patriots in this country are going against their own self-interest. So I don’t think patriotism is really a good thing for the country. At least not as it is practiced currently.

As many others have commented here, my patriotisms comes form an appreciation of the constitution with recognizing that the freedoms it contains makes this country a good place to live for the various diverse groups. It seems to me, though, that “tribal” feelings of our country being great just because we were born here is much stronger among religious people. The people I have met from other countries are just as nice and decent as the people from my own country so I can’t logically base patriotism on where someone was born.

I do, though, tend to root for my college football team… And I have rooted for the my country’s Olympic team (but more so in years past before the professional athletes starting participating….)

I like what Carl Sagan use to say… A citizen of the cosmos.

Seriously, do any of you know of someone who honestly left the country because they didnâ??t like who got elected president?

Yes. I have a close friend who moved her family to Canada when GWB got elected. I don’t blame her. I wanted to go too. I’m not sure I could force myself to stay here stay here if Huckabee got elected.

It’s not a matter of someone I don’t like getting elected. It’s a matter of the whole structure of American secular society and the values of freedom and enlightenment being systematically destroyed.

Darryl, I think has it right. How long do you stay and try to do your best to fix things when the ship goes off course? And when do you decide it’s a lost cause and abandon ship for your own sanity or safety? How do you know when your country has gone so far off course that there’s nothing you can do as a citizen to fix things?

I don’t think that I’m especially patriotic, but I think the USA is a good place to live.

I’m from Denmark, so I’m only able to speak from that point of view, but since I’m an atheist and live in a nation state patriotism is an issue for me to, I guess. From where I stand Denmark sucks these days. We have a right wing government whose parliamentary base is a radical right wing party bordering outright fascism. I simply cannot indorse that kind of idiocy.
But when it comes to civil liberties and freedom I’m all for it. I don’t love my country as such, and I’m not a patriot, but it could be a great place. And for that I’m willing to fight (vote).
A couple of years ago the borderline fascists tried to outlaw the burning of our flag. I think that is a great blow against the democracy I love. I want to be able to burn my own flag, gosh darn it. If I can’t do that, then whats the point? It things like that (and our behavior towards refugees) that makes me ashamed of telling foreign people that I’m from Denmark. It did not use to be like this.
My point is, I think, that nationalism is easily confused for patriotism, and vice verca. So it’s prolly best not to dabble with either. It’s nationalism that have brought Denmark to the sorry state it’s in at the moment.
Just fight for your ideals and freedom. And burn a flag if it needs to be burnt (your own that is. No good comes of burning other countries flags).

I agree with FNU LNU:

I love my secular Constitution. I cherish democracy. I value our freedoms. Why would someone be wrong to think that this nation is the best on earth?

There are so many places where we could never have this discussion. And while there are also many places that we could have it, very few of them are less than 250 years old.
Yes, we have issues. But really – our economy ain’t bad, we have a high rate of mobility (greener pastures), and if you are patient and willing to work hard, most of us can make a better life. We’re free to dissent, to complain, and to make what we think is a better country. As such things go, this is a country of great freedom and good works, and a lot of potential. Sometimes I think the population focuses so much on “us vs. them” only because we don’t have bigger issues; consider how we come together during times of crisis…

MikeClawson said,

No. As an atheist I do not consider myself patriotic. As an American I consider myself patriotic. My opinion on the very limited question of whether or not there is a supreme intelligent force is completely irrelevant to my love and appreciation of representative democracy.
In fact I resent the question.

What are your thoughts then on the four reasons I listed above about why I thought atheism might actually be related to this question of patriotism?

1&2 are simply non-sequiturs or gross generalizations. They are not part of atheism. They may be paths to atheism, but that is all.
3 doesn’t say anything about atheism, merely points out some wacky ideas held by some theists and therefore is irrelevant. 4 points out one of the problems in this discussion, which is what is meant by patriotism (again having nothing to do with atheism other than that skepticism can lead to atheism).
To me, patriotism is the same as pride.
If you achieve a great thing, like win the nobel prize, or get into the college of your dreams, then you should be proud of your accomplishment. You should bask in the glow of doing something good. Patriotism is taking pride in the good things your nation has done and the good principles it embodies. Our constitution embodies great principles. We should be proud of them, but we should not fold into our acceptance the actions taken against those principles. Patriotism means we should strive to keep those principles strong, reject arbitrary justice, cruel treatment, etc. and support human rights.

To sum up, patriotism is pride in one’s nation and taking part in keeping it worthy of that pride. The question of theology just isn’t relevant.