Preview of Nightline Debate

Slanted…definatly…why show your ignorance with the filthy mouth dude? Why not edit out his ignorant immature foulness it would have been so much more Powerful. still wrong though 🙂

I thought the definition of terrorist was particularly good and very damning. I’m even more interested to watch the entire program on Nightline now.

I would be even more interested if this debate was being done by a professional scientific panel and a professional theist panel but this debate does a good job of explaining how the average lay person approaches this issue from both sides of the coin.

But it didn’t exist forever did it? What happened to the Big Bang?

I have to say, the intro kind of turned me off, and I didn’t feel like watching the rest of the video.

In response to Helen, the Big Bang theory seems to predict a singularity at the beginning of time, but this does not take into account quantum gravity, so this prediction is in all likelihood false. The singularity is just an indication that the theory needs modification before making predictions back that far.

I think that the idea of “creating” the universe is a little off, since I think of the universe as being the space-time structure, and “creation” implies a before and after–some sort of timeline external to the universe.

Your statement of creation being a little off makes perfect sense. In the beginning time did not exist because space did not exist, so therefore there was no beginning – you have to have time (and space) to have a beginning. There was no time before the beginning (except maybe for the small speck that was the singularity).

Which incidentally fits very well with what Christian theologians and philosophers have been saying for centuries about God being “outside” of time. If, as theists believe, God was the originator of the Big Bang, then he too exists apart from space and time.

Mike C:
Evening, sir!

Then what created God? If a sort of time/space exists for God outside of our own time/space, then He would have to look around and ask “Who created Me?”

To steal an argument from Kirk Cameron and Mr. Comfort – all design has to have a creator, so therefore the reality God lives in has to have been designed too. By whom then? God didn’t just get created from nothing, He had to have come from somewhere.

And by that logic one would have to ask who created that designer? And the next. And the next.

But the singularity that existed at the “beginning” of the universe had infinite time. Time moved in all directions and all speeds all at once. Yesterday was tomorrow and next week was 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years ago. Basically, there was nothing else since everything was present in that singularity. The Big Bang was then a product of infinite time but finite space and thus since the two were in total opposition, they had to produce an equilibrium and thus the big bang was a product of finding a balance.

Possibly, if the universe keeps expanding, then the universe will have the opposite problem by having infinite space but finite time and the universe will again have to find balance.

Of course, I’m no quantum physicist so I’m not the best person to fully grasp these concepts. I am trying, though 🙂

But what you are talking about is God living outside of all that – which is pretty hard to prove, by the way. Also, if God is infinite AND the universe has the capacity for time or space infinity, then how can you have 2 infinities? That doesn’t make sense since you only need 1 infinity. There can never be 2 infinities (just like there can only be one 1 and one 5). Why bother with a second infinity since one does not need the other? Or better still, the universal infinity does not need the God infinity.

Oh brother, my head hurts. Please, are they any physicists here? Quantum physics makes my head hurt real real bad and I’m probably butchering every thesis ever written on the subject. 🙂

if God is infinite AND the universe has the capacity for time or space infinity, then how can you have 2 infinities? That doesn’t make sense since you only need 1 infinity. There can never be 2 infinities (just like there can only be one 1 and one 5).

Brother Dan, I’m with you: it makes my brain hurt trying to think about these things. As for infinities, it is mathematically possible to have multiple infinities that are each self-contradictory of our concept of the infinite. For example, imagine the set of all irrational numbers. How big is this set–it is infinite. Now, imagine the set of all whole numbers. How big is this set–it is also infinite. Here we have two different infinite sets (there are others), one is smaller than the other, and both are smaller than the set of all numbers (another infinity). Does this have any bearing on the universe and the place of the imaginary God? I don’t know.

Wow, I’m sure glad you guys made all that so clear. (slapping forehead) It’s all so simple! I can’t believe I missed it all this time. Thanks!

The only part I don’t understand, and the part I find a little disappointing is that after all that infinite density, infinite energy, infinite space and more or less 13.7 billion years (a week from next Tuesday) of expansion all we have to show for it is those two infinitely dense boneheads at the top of this page with their infinite energy to spout their infinitely vacuous arguments and the rest of us only slightly less than infinite boneheads commenting about them, God and the universe.

Kind of anticlimactic.

Looks interesting, can’t wait to see the whole debate. Kudos to the RSS.
Personally, I would have edited out the immature dork swearing in the back seat at the beginning. I guess it’s just a pet peeve of mine, but I don’t think it helps in creating respect for us non-believers.

God speaks:

Genesis: 1: “In the beginning, God created …Then God said, …

When Moses asked God , “Who should I tell has sent me?” God said, “Tell them I AM has sent me to you.” Exodus 3: 14

God spoke to many people in the Old Testament. God wrote on a wall with His finger that a king had been weighed and found wanting, for profaning what is holy. God spoke to perhaps a million Israelites in the fascinating account at Mt. Sinai, in the giving of the Law. The people were afraid they would die. God wrote the 10 Commandments-twice-with His Own finger. God spoke as Jesus Christ, and you can read His words in the New Testament.

There are 24,000 manuscripts of the New Testament alone! More than ANY other historical book.( Homer’s Ilyad comes n a distant 2nd w/ about 600. )

IF creation has a Creator, and IF that Creator is a Moral-Law giver, and IF He has repeatedly shown Himself to us through creation, science, prophecy, His Word,eye-witnesses and our conscience, God commends everyone everywhere to repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the earth in righteousness through His Son. (Acts 17:31) There are terrifying accounts of Judgment throughout the Bible, and the last day of Judgment in Revelation. Matthew 24 and Luke 21 speak of the return of Christ and judgment. IF there is a judgment to come, … one would be a fool not to be reconciled to Him in this life. The love of God is always seen in the cross of Christ.

Betty wrote:

If there’s a creation, there has to be a Creator.

Well by that logic, if there’s a God, there has to be a “Godder”.

What is it?

Answer: The Universe.

God exists because the universe created it (using human minds to think up such a concept and name it God).

“Before” the universe as we know it existed, there was no God.

The Universe predates God by billions and billions of years.

Betty…

You are not making sense.

But you ignore peoples responses and gallop forth to other assertions so quickly that I expect you to ignore anything I write in response.

Unless you interact, I’m forced to conclude that you are not interested in anything we have to say.

Have fun spamming Hemant’s site.

I was going to clarify for Betty that evolution does not “say things are evolving up,” that it’s just about adaptation and change, but not necessarily improvement. It’s only people’s vanity that makes them think they’re the latest in a “vertical” process. The jury’s still out on whether or not big brains is a good idea in evolutionary terms, since all that extra gray matter seems to be used mostly for screwing up the environment and threatening our own extinction.

But then I realized that Betty isn’t actually interacting with us. She is not responding to other’s comments, she’s just spouting a disjointed mix of scripture and scientific jargon.

My troll-o-meter just went off the scale.

Having learned the hard way about how to handle those, I’ll say no more.

Not attempting to spam, but using reason . I could only be on a little at a time.

Siamang wrote:

Well by that logic, if there’s a God, there has to be a “Godder”.

What is it?

Answer: The Universe.

God exists because the universe created it (using human minds to think up such a concept and name it God).

“Before” the universe as we know it existed, there was no God.

God always has been, always will be. We will never figure that one out, but if your hope is in His Son to save you, you will abide with Him forever, He will give you eternal life. Our feeble minds only know a small percent of anything. But God has made the door of salvation very low. He has confounded the wise.

Also stated: The Universe predates God by billions and billions of years.

Where do you get your information?

Where is proof of evolution? Where are the millions of transitional fossil forms? All the ape-people have been debuned, and National Geographic has had to recant. The Bible says God created things after their own kinds: trees beget trees, people beget people, who are made in God’s image.

Where does morality come from? the moral -Giver. Yet man chooses to rebel against God .

People say “whatever you want to believe is okay. Every path to God is okay.” The God of the Bible-the one true God (Jesus) -says the road is narrow and few will find it. Broad is the path to destruction.

We are all on death row. 10 out of 10 die. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. All of creation groans because of it.

Have you opened up the Word of God and read it?

Isn’t it hard to think that there is NOT a God? I can’t imagine being an accident.
I might as well have my fun then. I might as well rob my neighbor (they’ll never find out) and move to another state and live in luxury for the rest of my life. Why work? Why care?

Here for nothing? It’s obvious that we are here for a purpose. God made us with a purpose. Our job on earth is to FIND that purpose. If you want to serve God, then you will please God and enter eternity with Him. If you want to serve yourself, your sins and your god, you will enter eternity that route.

It’s actually really simple.

Thanks Betty & Cary- I just said the sinner’s prayer, and now I’m saved. Hallelujah!

…

Siamang, thanks for that response to Cary. I’m so sick of those shallow characterizations of atheism and it’s supposed implications. Your line-by-line rebuttal was the best I’ve seen yet.

It seems that for some (not all) Christians the first pre-requisite to being a Christian is to have a really low opinion of people. They seem to base their opinions of mankind on themselves. It’s tempting to think maybe it’s a good thing they believe the Great Smiter will kick their ass if they don’t behave, but I like to think that if they didn’t have Big Daddy over their heads, most of them could grow up, get beyond their childish level of morality and instead would do the right thing for the right thing’s sake.

Then again, maybe I’m naively basing my opinion of mankind on myself.

After watching the clips and without not much brain power to understand science and your big eternity comments, I like to think about what God calls himself. “Love”. If we take love out of the equation, then we can throw God out. I am talking about the Christian God by the way, no others religions God calls himself that. Love is more than an attraction, it is inexplainable. My feelings of love towards my wife go beyond sex and reproduction, in fact I often wonder why I have this love for her, she doesn’t look super pretty in the morning, annoys me… a lot. But I still love her. Maybe someone can explain to me where love comes from and why we have this… For me it is simple, God is love and we are made in his image, therefore we love, Christian or not. Science cannot prove love to me. No equations, brain power, theories can explain it. A 1 year old baby understands love, where does that come from, it is more than instinct. I love sunsets, I love the beach, I love…… Do we learn to love?
It seems to me that this debate is not discussing Gods existence but more (not everyone though I have to admit) on the hating of a God that has been distorted by his creation (especially so called Christians), which is sad, I found God by seeking him, not my parents, not my church, they failed me, I found him by seeking him, him alone, because if God is love, then thats huge.I have looked at some of the arguments about history and even the Bible and some of the crazy things that God did in there and I have answers. Some are too long to discuss right here, some are simple, but it started, the way Kirk started, by asking God are you real and guess what he proved himself. I challenge all of you to ask God, “Are you real, prove yourself?” Some may get hit by lightning (joke!!), others God may take his time to answer that question.
If you want to comment on my post please do, but prove to me that you are loving with your remarks….

I challenge all of you to ask God, “Are you real, prove yourself?”

I’ve asked it too many times to count. I ask it in different ways every day. I’ve done this for decades with zero answer. Is that proof God doesn’t exist? I cannot say. But if He does exist, He has a different path in mind for me than the one you’ve chosen for yourself and the one you think I should choose.

I’m happy for you, Ben, and all the wonderful things you have and enjoy in life. I’m happy you have a spiritual feeling that connects you to life and other people.

I also feel love, and I enjoy life passionately.

But just because you feel love and you associate that feeling with supernatural causes does not mean that the same is true for me, or SHOULD be. I would be a fool if I were to prescribe a set of beliefs for you, and say, “you MUST believe as I do”. I would be an idiot if I “challenged” you to give up your church, give up prayer, give up believing in God for a month or so because then the Truth would reveal itself to you and you’d be an atheist.

I think it’s a little like love. What if I told you you married the wrong woman, and really you should marry a girl named Shirley?

Beliefs don’t work like that, and my path is not your path. I do not for one moment think that doing any prescribed set of actions in a “challenge” can change someone’s beliefs, any more than you could make someone love someone else.

Discussing ideas can be enlightening and fun, and can promote mutual understanding. But come on “just ask God to reveal Himself”? Did you think we hadn’t thought of that?

Just because I don’t have the same beliefs you do doesn’t mean that I didn’t try to.

I was trying to prove a point. Not saying I want to rob my neighbor, I’m just saying why wouldn’t we do immorial things if nothing matters? I know no matter what I say here you all will just insult me. That is okay. My intentions were not to insult any one else. If you watched the debate it’s obvious that the Christians were very loving in their approach. I’m sorry we can’t discuss things without being called an idiot and other names.

Ben:

What is love?

There is a species of stork (maybe it’s a crane) that lives in Asia. When the birds mate, they mate for life. Is that love?

In Yellowstone Park when Bison are being hunted by wolves, the bison will go out of their way to protect stray members of the heard. Is that love?

Elephants often pause at the “grave” sites of their dead herd members. Is that love?

When you see a great ape cradling its young and protecting it from all danger, is that love?

If love is from God, then why do we see the same behavior from animals in the wild? If God is love, then it seems he has given this capacity to all creatures even though it is professed that love is unique only to humanity. Now some animals may have less of this desire than others – spiders and alligators are not exactly loving towards anything, but whales, humans and apes care very much about each other.

Love, basically, is an product of evolution. We humans are very social creature and that ability to be social has been one of the main reasons why we have been so successful. The more we have evolved, the more powerful this emotion is felt for us. Love for each other keeps communities together because there is strength in numbers and love is the “glue” which holds our different societies together (unless the societies have different religions, then they hate each other).

The thing about love, though, is that it is a very powerful emotion (hate is a close second on the top ten chart) and we do not have the ability to really control love (and that’s a good thing, I believe). But since our brains are designed to be curious we have a hard time processing this emotion. Love can take a hold of a person (love at first sight – I’ve felt that) and can even change a person (like when we act silly around the girl we love).

Because of this power love has over pretty much every aspect of our lives, we deal with it better by giving it a supernatural explanation. It’s hard for us to deal with a force/emotion that can control us, we don’t really want to accept that it’s just a product of our evolution. Since love is felt towards other humans (though one could say they love their pet) we imagine it being the product of a God or spirit in our image. In other words, love is kind of a scary thing because of how strong an effect it has on us.

So, if love is a product of evolution, does it make it any less important and powerful? No, of course not. Even if scientists were able to pin down the love gene in our DNA, we would still be as powerless as a person in the 13th century who believed it came from God to control it. We would still have the desire to protect our young from danger, we would still stay faithful to our spouse (though that doesn’t happen much anymore, unfortunately), we would still grieve over the loss of dead relatives and we would still lay down our lives for a cause we believed in.

Possibly, when our species evolves again (evolution doesn’t quite work so quickly, I’m over simplifying) we will be better equipped to deal with love. Maybe the next species of intelligent humans will evolve away from the humans who kill in the name of love and will be better adapted to cope with such a powerful emotion. By then, we may no longer need to invent spirits living outside our realm of reason and experience to explain the things in our lives we are unable to control.

NOTE: I wrote this comment about an hour ago, but for some reason it got lost when I submitted it (and it was better than this comment too). If that post should ever appear from computer limbo, please forgive my writing basically the same thing twice.

Siamang said,

May 9, 2007 at 7:29 pm

Betty,

You didn’t answer me.
If everything had a creator, what made God?

God is I AM. If He is creator of creation, existing outside time and space, no one had to create Him. God is not matter, He doesn’t have flesh and bones. God is Spirit. God communicated His eternal-ness by His spoken Word and by speaking creation into existence.

“He Himself gives to all life and breath, determines their appointed times and boundaries, that they should seek Him and findHim, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist. : Acts 17:26-28

Take a breath. Where did it come from? Who causes your heart to beat til the day you die? Who set the earth in motion? Who tells the waves to come this far-and no farther? Who not only created–but sustains–all life on this earth? Who holds the earth in orbit? Who gives it rain and seasons?

The fool has said in his heart–there is no God. God have mercy.

Betty:

By the way, the majority of people I worked with when caring for the mentally disabled were not Christians. Many were spiritual and though I would not call them atheists, they also were not Christians.

I have allot of experience in this field of work, but I’ve never been able to figure out why so few Christians are drawn to the real work of helping humanity in this capacity.

Can you maybe answer that one for me? I so hope it’s not because the disabled are some sort of painful reminder that God is not perfect.

++++

As you can see, I am VERY emotional about this topic so I should add that I mean no disrespect towards Christians in general, even though I have said some nasty things here. It’s just that I worked with living, caring, loving human beings that most of society would rather forget or lock up or worse. These people need an advocate because many of them are unable to fully care for themselves.

If Christ is really “alive”, I demand that he put more God loving Christians on the path of helping these people.

Nobody! That’s kind of the current big problem with the world, life is going extinct at a phenomenal rate because NOBODY’s minding the store.

Excellent point, Siamang!

Siamang:

The events I talked about happened a few years ago and the gentleman in question has since passed away.

I too have had a similar experience as your wife concerning the organization I worked for. We once had a “consumer” (that’s the term we used to describe the people receiving services) that was very overweight and had some social issues. He was a great kid and everyone liked him. He was lucky in that he lived in his own apartment and he had a job. Our job was to help him make better decisions about his hygiene, his weight and his social skills.

Well, we started to make real progress after about a year but the place we worked for decided to restructure and provide less services for our friend. Myself and a lady who had been with the organization for many years were told that we were no longer needed and were reassigned.

Reassigned!

This guy was our friend. You don’t reassign friends!

Needless to say, we were pissed and raised such a BIG STINK that when the dust settled and we had made no progress, we quit.

It was the last straw for me, and I’ve heard many stories like this before too.

Too often, the developmentally disabled are treated as products and not people. It’s forgotten that they are human beings with hopes and dreams just like you and me and even Betty.

What’s worse is “well intentioned” people think it’s enough to “pray” for the disabled. Now that really pisses me off.

Pray? Are you serious? How insulting!

It’s insulting because A) the act of praying for the disabled assumes there is something wrong with them that needs fixing and B) it’s an excuse to not have to leave your house to do anything to actually help the disabled with the stuff they do need help with.

Anyway, I’m sure your wife and other people she has worked with has similar stories. They are all sad stories too, unfortunately.

I have to admit, me quitting was a tough decision because I knew I was doing some good but on the other hand I had taken such poor care of myself that I was mentally unable to do it anymore. I still feel bad about leaving. I still think about both the people I’ve been talking about here. Sometime I think I made a mistake, but other times I remember how hard it was too.

I guess that’s why I get so mad at Christians who do nothing but preach and talk but never get their hands dirty. Somehow they think just spreading the word of God is enough and everything else in the world will take care of itself. But these Christians have no idea what the real world is all about (and I’m not talking about all Christians, so please look past my anger). They talk about love but have never really loved. They talk about God but they really worship a comfortable and convenient idol. They say they know God while millions of people around the world don’t even know what it’s like to eat food on a regular basis, or have the use of their limbs. What good is their God doing them?

Does the Christian God have such low self esteem that he needs everyone preaching about him at the expense of millions dying?

If I ever were to believe in a God, it sure as heck fire would not be that God.

Betty:

15.
The First Law of Thermodynamics established (Genesis 2:1-2). The First Law states that the total quantity of energy and matter in the universe is a constant. One form of energy or matter may be converted into another, but the total quantity always remains the same. Therefore the creation is finished, exactly as God said way back in Genesis.
Visit:
Modern Scientific Discoveries Verify the Scriptures (Institute For Creation Research)

——————————————————————————–

16.
The first three verses of Genesis accurately express all known aspects of the creation (Genesis 1:1-3). Science expresses the universe in terms of: time, space, matter, and energy. In Genesis chapter one we read: “In the beginning (time) God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter)…Then God said, “Let there be light (energy).” No other creation account agrees with the observable evidence.

——————————————————————————–
17.
The universe had a beginning (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 1:10-12). Starting with the studies of Albert Einstein in the early 1900s and continuing today, science has confirmed the biblical view that the universe had a beginning. When the Bible was written most people believed the universe was eternal. Science has proven them wrong, but the Bible correct.
Visit:
Modern Scientific Discoveries Verify the Scriptures (Institute For Creation Research)

http://www.understandthetimes.org/101scientific.shtml

Are you serious? Did you actually just cut and paste this as your answer?

Unbelievable!

Do you even know what any of the science is actually talking about anyway?

See, this is why atheists have such a hard time with religion – especially Christianity – because of the canned responses. I mean, you didn’t even bother to interpret what you cut and pasted, you just posted it as if it were the same “truth” you find in the bible.

Now I’m sure you study the bible and understand it to be the word of God, but do you also believe everything at http://www.understandthetimes.org/101scientific.shtml is also from God? Do you presume to believe that anything that has a fish symbol on it to be the undisputed word of God just like the Bible?

Next time, if you really want to reach out to people, take the time to understand the material you are talking about. If, as often happens with many people, you get in over your head, admit you are in over your head.

I’m sure if you’ve spent anytime on atheist sites like this one, you’ve seen that the people who actually know what they are talking about are the ones who get heard and are engaged in a friendly and thoughtful manner. It’s when people just spout off tidbits of things they don’t know anything about that the trouble starts.

Many atheists (not all, but many) have taken the time to learn and understand the facts of science and then, when they talk about what they know, they are providing their take on the information. But you, Betty, you offer nothing personal, you only hand out empty cans of nuts which you believe to be full. We can’t take you seriously because we know you are not thinking for yourself.

Atheists pride themselves on thinking for themselves – even God (in theory) wants people to think for themselves. That’s why He supposedly gave you free will. That’s why he supposedly planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of eden. Your God set you on a platform of which you have free will to fall off of.

But you turn atheists off with these canned responses because we don’t want to be a part of something that strangles our ability to think for ourselves. We see people like you doing what you are doing and we remember that encounter as “something to avoid at all costs”.

Nobody wants to be turned into a robot. Even your God does not want you to be a robot. He wants you to have a personal stake in His existence. He wants you to bring something of yourself to the table.

I always hear that “God is creating an Army.” Well, Betty, I was in the military and I can tell you that no commander wants robots fighting for him, he NEEDS people who are capable of thinking for themselves because all the training in the world can’t prepare a person for every scenario. He may want you to work within a set of guidelines, but He does not want a robot.

Darryl : When I was 7 I had meningitis, I was supposed to die, my church prayed for me, the next day I was fine, the doctors had no idea how I was fine? Miracle – Yes.
I have seen many many miracles as I have traveled with my work (I am a missionary by the way), a paralyzed lady, prayed for, she was able to jump around. Unfortunately we live in he USA where Christianity has become dead, churches care more about the size of the building than faith and sacrifice. You will not see many miracles here in the USA, go to Africa the Middle East, China and other countries, they are living like the first Christian church, with only God to rely on. You see miracles every day. The Chinese church is growing at a massive rate, millions of Christians, Muslims all over the world are giving their life to Christ, South Korea went from 0 Christians to 50% in less than 100 years, Nepal has thousands coming to know God every day. Do not look to the American church as an example of Christianity, seriously. Unfortunately man is sinful by nature, I work now in the USA and like many missionaries who have traveled the world I am concerned for the US church. God has blessed the USA, despite its history, but like the promise to Abraham, we are blessed so we can be a blessing to those in need. The USA has neglected (somewhat) that command to us. But on that note ….

Dan:
Sorry for your experience with churches, they were wrong, I am truly sorry.
But do not tell me Christians do nothing to help the poor and needy, go to Africa, Afghanistan anywhere where the Tsunami hit and it is Christian organizations that are helping to rebuild. Even look at New Orleans, I have been there 3 times since Katrina and its mostly the church and Christian organizations that are rebuilding that city. Time magazine ran an article on it recently if you don’t believe me. Look back over the past 200 years of groups that have helped the needy and you will see that it is Christian organizations that have helped. Barnados, Salvation army, then the many missionary organizations that are bringing relief work all over the world. The organization I work for has been asked in Thailand, Indonesia to be the main organizers of relief and rebuilding after the Tsunami. Why us, its because they know we care and love people. I know non Christian organizations help as well, but it frustrates me when I hear people say Christians don’t care. Bono!! A self professed Christian is leading the way in kicking the wests butt into shape about Aids in Africa. My organization is doing lots of work to help with that. Also we are funding water purifiers to help Africans have clean water. Love your neighbor, many Christians are obeying this commandment!! I wish more would, especially in the blessed western rich church!
And to everyone who has posted comments on here saying they would never follow Christianity because of the example we as the church have been , that is a horrible reason too. I am a hypocrite, I work with hypocrites, Christians are hypocrites, we all know that. Some of my best friends are hypocrites. Does that mean I refuse to work with them. No. Jesus is the only person to look to as a true example of Christianity, look to him and his teaching, not the US Church who has largely turned their back on Christs teaching of sacrifice and love.

Also Dan:
Love, like many other things does not evolve (thats a whole other subject, creation science vs evolution), it is more than the instinctual actions of animals, but I do confess I don’t understand why animals behave in ways that can be loving. I would die for my wife so she could live, that is true love, a selfless love that would always put her before me (well I am trying to achieve this, but thats what my heart wants). Christ died for us so we wouldn’t have to, that is true love, like I said earlier, not sex, remorse or past memories. Your view of love is distorted by this world. True love is to lay down your life for someone else, nothing is greater than that. God is not a hateful God, he wants no one to go to Hell, thats why he selflessly died so we could have life. Somebody deny that that is not the most loving thing someone could do. Not an inch of hate. God is love not hate. Because of sin we choose to reject God, so it is our decision to go to hell to reject God, even though he made a way out for us. What an amazing God that would use mans decision to kill him as the way for us to be redeemed. Thats the kind of God that I follow not this hateful, vengeful God you speak of.

Dan,

Don’t give me that it-happens-everywhere-but-here bullshit. If you had evidence of a single confirmed miracle, you’d be world-famous overnight and your picture would be on the front page of every newspaper in the world. Wanting miracles to be true is not the same as making true miracles. Come now, you can do better than this.

Dan,

Don’t give me that it-happens-everywhere-but-here bullshit. If you had evidence of a single confirmed miracle, you’d be world-famous overnight and your picture would be on the front page of every newspaper in the world. Wanting miracles to be true is not the same as making true miracles. Come now, you can do better than this.

I’m not sure I have spoken about miracles. Did you mean this comment for Ben?

Thank you Siamang and Dan Harlow for your comments. For years I thought I was alone in my rational beliefs, now I know that I am not. People can be very mean and unforgiving to anyone that is different. Most if not all Christains want to change everyone thoughts into believing the way they do while forgetting that everyone has different experiences and different environments to deal with. It is interesting that the native indegious tribes were the ones that survived the Asian Tsumani. They also had very little contact with outsiders.

The bible was not printed in its entirely. Did Jesus have a family? And even if Jesus tomb is ever found who will believe that it was his. So there is really no way to disprove or prove biblical historical accounts. Science on the other hand has a clear scientific method for disproving or laying the ground work for proving hypothesises (into well known facts).

. . . God knows we can never be perfect.The Christian message is not convoluted, it is simple, thats why God gave us the Bible so we can see the whole story of his redemption and what HE did for us not what we can do for him.

It is simple. As soon as we are born we are covered in sin from Adam and Eve. We must accept Jesus or we will burn in hell because the god of love set up the rules this way. The guilt and blood sacrifice in Christianity are just too much for me to take seriously.

Ben said to Dan: Dan – well I guess I am a liar then, thanks for that vote of confidence in my miraculous story, I have no reason to lie, just search for miracles in google and you will find many reports of miracles.

You can also find many reports of UFO abductions, demonic possession, and the healing power of crystals sold on the Internet. Even so, I haven’t seen sufficient evidence for me to believe the veracity of any such reports. I wouldn’t call you a liar, Ben. I think you might be mistaken, though, like those who believe in the things I listed above. There are many ways people can be fooled into concluding that a supernatural (or extraterrestrial, as the case may be) event has occurred, when there is probably a natural, scientific explanation. The skepdic.com site has a lot of interesting information on how human beings can be fooled by misperception and false expectations.

Beyond what may be a misunderstanding of the causes of seemingly miraculous events, there’s the fact that most religions, including primitive folk religions, claim that the invisible entities that they say exist also cause miracles. To me this means that even if supernatural miracles do occur, at least some, if not all, religions are incorrect in their explanations of the origins of said miracles.

In short, science and reason inform me (and probably many of the atheists on this site) that Christianity and miracles (whatever they may be) are probably a case of correlation without causation. In other words, it’s true that a lot of people eat vegetables within 24 hours before having a car accident, but carrots don’t cause crashes. In relation to Christianity (or Islam, for instance): the personal benefits of a religion aren’t proof that its metaphysical claims are true.

While I don’t’ agree with your reason (created in God’s image), I appreciate the fact that you recognize that non-believers can be just as loving, and do deeds that are just as good as those done by believers. Also, I agree that folks on both sides of the faith fence can sometimes, unfortunately, paint each other with a broad brush. I’m glad you’re out there helping those in need, Ben, but I hope you can understand why I don’t accept your religion.

That last post from me was for those apishlly thumping their Bibles, quoting verses from it, insisting their human concept of a “Christian” is the only god and is real, evolution this and that, and alike. Not to those who aren’t imposing a view of a deity on anyone. I’m sorry, but the Christian concept of god is only a human concept that can not and should not be imposed on others.

But if you prefer to act like Chimps and thump your Bible….

Sorry about double post there:) .

Quote: Really, if God does exist, he should have never offered any “evidence” of His existence at all. No Bible, no Jesus, no “miracles”, no “revealings”. He should have just “created” the universe and sat back to see who lived a life of virtue because the people who did good all the while thinking there was no good reason to do so, are the sort of people who can be counted on for all eternity.

Actually, He didn’t have to create at all. Creation just shows His work.

There is one God-who has, in His mercy, sent His Son , who has explained Him. (John 1) . All other religions worship idols. (Romans 1:18-

To be good is to be morally excellent. No one is, but God alone. Though we do acts of kindness, and though we can love other, we do not meet the demands of the One who IS love: God Himself.

“You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts.” -Jesus

A missionary once went to Africa to tell them about Jesus…when he got there, they didn’t WANT to hear about Jesus-because they loved their lives the way they were. Jesus said men love evil and darkness, refusing to come into the light, lest their deeds be exposed.

Take an honest look at youself…honest..look. You have not been good all the time. Your heart is deceitful..

I doubt that would be fruitful. I can write you the entire script of everything Ray would say, we’ve heard it before: Ten commandments. Creation implies a creator. There’s no such thing as an atheist. If you lied you’re a liar. If you’ve looked at another person you’re an adulterer. If I’m wrong, nothing happens, but if I’m right and you’re judged by almighty God at judgement day, by your own admission you’re a lying, thieving, blaspheming adulterer, how should you be judged….

That’s his telemarket script. That’s his high-pressure sales tactics that cares ZERO about who he’s talking to, or where they’ve been or what they’ve learned in their own path toward enlightenment.

The truth is, Ray never, EVER changes what he says in response to a listener. He sticks with his patented, trademarked telemarketing script, and doesn’t stray. He shows zero desire to LISTEN to someone else. He shows zero desire to meet people where they are and attempt to understand them.

All he does is follow his script.

It’d be like trying to have a conversation with an automated call center. “If you have ever told a lie, Press One! If you’ve ever stolen, Press TWO!”

The man’s a salesman. He produces slick videos with his friend Kirk, and they aren’t exactly cheap. 100 bucks a pop for the “basic course” in the Way of the Master.

Wow, imagine if Jesus charged 20 scheckles a head for the Sermon on the Mount!

And that’s the snake oil hyucksterism of Way of the Master. Ahh… the broad outline of the “Way” is free. But to really use these debate techniques, you need the full set of DVD’s…. and THEY ain’t free!

Ray and Kirk make a living off of $elling $alvation. They are the money changers in the temple, preying on the pray-ers. If Ray gave a flip about actually saving souls, every single one of his videos would be free for download on Youtube.

But no, he’s interested in slick production values… and those don’t come cheap. He’s starstruck about his buddy Kirk, and he wants to be a superstar.

These two proclaim that the “Master” in the WOTM is Jesus. As if they’re using Jesus’ techniques (And Paris Hilton probably thinks she’s Helen of Troy). Ah, yes. I remember in the Bible where Jesus wore make-up and stood under studio lighting while high-quality video cameras went out with a crew on location to some pastoral lakeside or bay, then Jesus gave out the first episode for free as an infomercial for the whole set.

Of course Ray charges for these videos. Gotta pay your crew somehow. Gotta sell the sizzle when you ain’t got no steak.

Of course, he could just get a camcorder and put all of his masterful tips for evangelism for free on YouTube… probably far, far more souls could be saved that way.

But that doesn’t line the money-changer’s pockets, now does it?

Ben wrote:

Rays videos are for training for Christians, not for non Christians.

Ray’s videos are for Christians to turn more people into Christians. They are evangelism tools. Assuming they are good evangelism tools, if Ray gave them away for free, then there’d be more people saved, but less money in Ray’s pocket.

Jesus gave away his teachings for free. Not Ray!

This is their job, so why not let them make money from it. We all have to live you know.

$elling $alvation. No better con in the book, because nobody asks for their money back if they don’t get into heaven!

Why are you so mad at them,

Because they were rude to Hemant. They called him names and attacked him after he was nice and polite and agreed to do their show. I think they’re two very rude people.

If there is no God why are you even on this blog, surely you should live your lives happy.

I hate to point this out to you, but this isn’t a Christian blog. It’s an atheist blog. It’s you who came here to seek us out, not the other way around. Why are you here?

Answer me this atheists, if we Christians are supposed to be the hateful ones in this world, why when I look back over this blog and watch the clips from the debate last night is it the atheists who are seething and speaking hateful words.

I never said that Christians were the hateful ones in this world. In fact, many Christians who have known me on this board for over a year would chime in that that’s the direct opposite of something that I’d say.

You ask why atheists say hateful things on the video. Well, not being the people in question, I’m not in a position to defend them. Maybe they were abused by a priest. Maybe they grew up in fear of a vengeful phantom. A friend of mine was beaten often as a child because he didn’t believe in God. Who knows why people are angry?

I know, that’s not you, and other Christians here would also say that God weeps at such things. But you have to take the ENTIRITY of human states and conditions and experiences if you say that your God and your beliefs are a one-size-fits-all deal. If you believe the world would be a wonderful place if every single person was a cookie-cutter, samethink, lockstep, 100% fundmentalist Jesusbot, well…

I can’t agree with you there.

So when people like Cameron and Comfort express such an idea, that everyone in the world is a big fuck up if they aren’t a smiling Camazotz Jesusbot, and they’re on a one way trip to the big Abu Ghraib in the ground to be anally raped by demons for all eternity… well, I smile and say, “Jesus loves you too, banana-boy.”

Christian Philosopher
Is that what you call one of them there oxymorons?

So he’s more polite than the rude namecallers Cameron and Comfort? I hope so.

Is Zacharias the best arguer for God in the world? Because in the clip you talked about, he’s committing logical fallacy after logical fallacy.

A skilled speaker, but utterly fallacious. Another Christian making unsupported allegations laced with hidden assumptions that merely convinces people who are already Christians that he’s a fountain of intellectually sound reasons to believe.

Is Zacharias the very very best that God has?

El,

George Bush travels the world too, and he speaks to the widest possible audience: you think that makes him the best we’ve got?

Also see: http://www.worldviewweekend.com for free videos.

As far as Jesus and history, check out all the prophecies concerning Messiah.
There are over 300 -they ALL came true. Could you say that about yourself–someone predicting your life–100’s of years before you were born?

Isaiah 7:14 Messiah born of a virgin . Jesus was.
Psalms 22:1-31 Messiah’s hands and feet would be pierced, He would be mocked. Also Isaiah 50:6
Psalm 35:19: -Messiah would be hated w/out reason. Also Psalm 69:21
Isaiah 53:9- Buried with the rich
Jeremiah 31:15-Massacre of the infants to try to kill the King of the Jews.
Daniel 9:24-27 Time of His birth.
Micah 5:1-5 Born in Bethlehem
Zechariah 11:12- Messiah would be sold for 30 pices of silver

Malachi: 3;3–our sins purged

Isaiah 53: It pleased God to crush Him. He is pierced for our transgressions, by His stripes we are healed.
——————————————————-

As Kirk said, maybe it’s because you WON”T come to Him to have life. Jesus said the same.

Way of the Master radio show. Hemant was a guest. They waited until he was off the air and then they layed into him, calling him a fool, etc. Attacking him after he was off the air, because they couldn’t say the worst stuff about him while he could defend himself.

Of course that’s the standard WOTM trademark. They can call people fools and then they say “I didn’t call you a fool, the Bible did….”

Well, my invisible friend Harvey the Rabbit thinks they’re a pair of arrogant opportunistic holier-than-thou egomaniacs.

Who knows why people are angry?

Evolution definitely doesn’t give us the answer now does it.

If you believe the world would be a wonderful place if every single person was a cookie-cutter, samethink, lockstep, 100% fundmentalist Jesusbot, well…

As apposed to what? This beautiful society we live in now? Got to say I would much rather live in a Christian environment than one that is completely void of God any day. Have been there and didn’t like it. Personally and in this world.

and they’re on a one way trip to the big Abu Ghraib in the ground to be anally raped by demons for all eternity

do you really think that us Christians and God want this for you? Sorry your very wrong their. You idea of God has been misunderstood. God did not create hell for us, it was for Satan and his fallen angels. That is a long subject not for right now as I need to sleep. Thanks for keeping up the good discussion.

I hate to point this out to you, but this isn’t a Christian blog. It’s an atheist blog. It’s you who came here to seek us out, not the other way around. Why are you here?

Cos I enjoy debate, but find it funny that you spend all this time arguing with people when you could be enjoying your happy God free life, but some urge inside you has you want to do this. My urge is compassion for your souls, what is yours, anger or fear, or just down right loving a good fight….

Actually the above question is not just sarcasm, what is your reason for doing this? I agree some Christians are terrible, but 95% of Christians I hang around with are loving, compassionate, giving, respectful, awesome people. Maybe you should come hang out with my Jesusbot friends, you may enjoy it.

I just want to bring up a couple of points that I have yet to hear a solid answer on from an evolutionist. When I say “solid”, I mean, an answer that makes any sense in the realm of logic. Shooting holes in evolution is easier than shooting holes through a barn from the inside with the door closed. I have brought these up on campuses from local community colleges to major universities such as Sydney University in Sydney, AU. Apparently post modernism has taken such root on campuses that the absurdity of what’s being held up as “science” is lost on them (professors and students alike).

1. Give just one example of a transitional fossil. Just one. Darwin said that if his theory was correct there should be millions. However Darwinian evolutionists have yet to produce one. If you are going to mention archeopteryx (sp?) then please share with us what it was in its prior incarnation and what it was trying to become (genus and species).

2. Give just one example in all of the realm of natural history where there has been an increase of information within a closed system. The historical theory of macro-evolution absolutely requires that living things somehow gain genetic information that they do not have, mysteriously, from within. Before answering, bear in mind that genetic mutations which result in some sort of change happen because of a loss of information and therefore do not count by definition.

3. If you are going to be an evolutionist, why not insist on some empirical evidence (not just the study of the history of an idea)? If I am to believe this theory that we’re all the descendants of monkeys via a spark in soup, produced by an explosion in a vacuum, then it’s going to take some observable evidence. Otherwise, I have to think that it takes way more faith to be an evolutionist than it does to be a creationist, because honestly, being a creationist makes a lot more sense than these fairy tales.

For example, if I were an evolutionist, before I tucked my kids in at night I would tell them of the current theory of the evolution of dolphins. “Long ago and far, far away there was a wolf walking on a beach by the ocean. As he gazed out into the murky depths, he had a strange longing, a biological urge as it were, to get back to his evolutionary roots. He thought to himself, ‘Oh, I just want to swim with the fishes, my long lost ancestors’ and he waded out into the water and tried to swim. He got caught up in the surf and the inevitable happened.”

“What happened daddy? Did he drown?”

“Yes, honey. He drowned. What he did not know is that he is a wolf and not a fish and because he did not have the necessary adaptations, he drowned and died.”

“But how did we get dolphins if he died daddy?”

“Oh, that’s easy sweetheart. The very next day another wolf, strangely enough, had the same longings. He thought, ‘I want to get back to my biological roots from whence I came’ and waded out into the surf.”

“Did he grow flippers and swim?”

“Well, um, no honey. That wolf died too.”

“Then how did we get dolphins daddy?”

“Eventually, after enough time had passed and many dozens, if not hundreds or even thousands of wolves died, one wolf finally made it. The lucky wolf, Flipper, picked his way over the bloated bodies of his cousins and the skeletons of his ancestors and nature found a way. Genetically the wolf gained the information he needed to get flippers, his nostrils transformed into a blow hole and he swam off into the sunset, flipping his little flippers in glee as he went. And he lived happily ever after, at least until a great white shark ate him for Sunday brunch.”

“Wow, daddy. Do you think it hurt when his nostrils moved to the top of his head and his fur fell off?”

“Well, I don’t know honey. I guess it might have.”

“Daddy?”

“Yes?”

“Do you think Santa Claus’ reindeer are trying to evolve into birds and that’s why they can fly?”

Folks, this is the kind of absurdity that you are forced into believing if you hold to Darwinian evolution. And it’s based on nothing but theory and not a shred of it is based on empirical, observable evidence.

Am I biased? Absolutely. But I cannot help but think that the folks foisting this baloney on us are just as biased. The existence of God suggests accountability and that is what most atheists\agnostics find to be completely untenable, because for all intents and purposes, they are gods to themselves. They are not atheists. They are self-theists. They worship at the altar of their mirror every morning because, after all, they have all knowledge and are the sum total of billions of years of evolution.

Blessings,

Jon

Jon said: I just want to bring up a couple of points that I have yet to hear a solid answer on from an evolutionist. When I say “solid”, I mean, an answer that makes any sense in the realm of logic.

You’ve read the current scientific literature written for the layperson, or spent time on sites like The Pandas Thumb, and haven’t gotten any decent answers? I’m no expert on evolution, but here are a few answers off the top of my head.

1. Give just one example of a transitional fossil. Just one.

Since multiple links can delay a post, Google: talk origins transitional fossils, then follow that link to the Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ; it should explain a lot.

2. Give just one example in all of the realm of natural history where there has been an increase of information within a closed system. […] Before answering, bear in mind that genetic mutations which result in some sort of change happen because of a loss of information and therefore do not count by definition.

Not at all. Google: gene duplication.
BTW, you’re alluding, I think, to the specious thermodynamics argument about closed systems. Earth isn’t a closed system; there’s a nuclear fireball about 93 million miles out showering the planet with an incredible amount of energy. Most of it is “wasted”, but there’s more than enough hitting the Earth to sustain life and power evolution.

3. If you are going to be an evolutionist, why not insist on some empirical evidence (not just the study of the history of an idea)? If I am to believe this theory that we’re all the descendants of monkeys via a spark in soup, produced by an explosion in a vacuum, then it’s going to take some observable evidence.

See above. Also, you’re conflating the theory of evolution (well established through empirical evidence, and in agreement with the empirical evidence from the other branches of science) with biogenesis and cosmology. You might want to take things one at a time in order to gain a better understanding.

Otherwise, I have to think that it takes way more faith to be an evolutionist than it does to be a creationist, because honestly, being a creationist makes a lot more sense than these fairy tales.

I assume you’re a Christian? You might want check out two books written by scientists who are also Christians:
Finding Darwin’s God by Kenneth Miller
The Language of God by Francis Collins

BTW, Francis Collins is the head of the Human Genome Research Institute and a member of the American Scientific Affiliation. That last organisation is composed of scientists who are all Christians.

For example, if I were an evolutionist, before I tucked my kids in at night I would tell them of the current theory of the evolution of dolphins.

Oops, I think you might want to read up on evolutionary biology; you’ve got some things turned around there…

Folks, this is the kind of absurdity that you are forced into believing if you hold to Darwinian evolution. And it’s based on nothing but theory and not a shred of it is based on empirical, observable evidence.

You need to look at epidemiology for information on how viruses and bacteria evolve. They have a very rapid life cycle compared to larger organisms, so their evolution can be observed in action.

El said,

May 10, 2007 at 8:25 pm

WHILE I RESPECT RAY COMFORT AND KIRK CAMERON VERY MUCH, I DONT THINK THEY ARE QUALIFIED FOR THIS TYPE OF DEBATE. ANYONE EVER HEARD OF RAVI ZACHARIAS? ARGUABLY THE MOST BRILLIANT CHRISTIAN PHILOSOPHER TODAY. HE WOULD HAVE SINGLE HANDEDLY TAKEN ON BOTH OF THESE VERY AMATURE DEBATERS. I HIGHLY SUGGEST YOU DOWNLOAD SOME OF HIS MATERIAL AND SEE FOR YOURSELF. http://www.BETHINKING.ORG

http://www.wayofthemaster.com/btc.shtml

Ravi recommends Way of the Master as well 🙂

The ate term abortion process is where they rip the baby apart and pull her out piece by piece. The whole thing is like illegalizing beating your wife by throwing bricks at her, while keeping it legal to beat her with a baseball bat or a chair. It’s just ridiculous.

Each baby butchered at the hands of abortionists comes out equally dead, regardless of the procedure used. That, my friends, is the problem. America needs to repent of the sin of abortion in its totality…not just the “procedure” that happens to sound the most gruesome.

Abortion being legal does not make it right. It was legal just 3 generations ago to own black people; it was legal to lynch them. Was it right? Absolutely not. In Germany, just decades ago, it was legal to murder Jews. Was it right? Absolutely not. In both situations, it was because black and jews, respectively, were seen as sub-human that they were “allowed” the be slaughtered. Why is abortion legal? Because unborn babies are seen as less human. That’s why the government sanctions their slaughter. Is it right? Absolutely not.

Women should not have any right to murder their children. The concept of abortion being constitutional due to right to privacy is absolutely ludicrous. The idea that it should be legal to protect women from back alley abortions is equally ludicrous. Why should murderers be safer while they murder? Maybe we should have little buildings all across town for moms to bring their 2 and 3 year olds into when they get stressed and don’t feel like they are ready to be a Mom, so they can pay someone to kill them. It’s no different. Abortion is this country’s sacred cow. People know it’s wrong; the conscience of every individual bears witness to that, until it becomes seared. And yet, because it’s not “politically correct” to speak out against, people don’t. They are cowards.

Abortion will not end until the hearts of Americans are changed by a Holy God. The hearts of Americans will not be changed by a Holy God until the hearts of professing Christians are changed by a Holy God. As David said, “Then will I teach transgressors thy ways, and sinners shall be converted unto thee.” It is only when people who profess to know God actually KNOW Him, and live in obedience to His command to preach the gospel to EVERY creature that people will be saved. Revival has to start in the churches, just as the cleansing in Ezekiel started in the temples. Until people fear God and preach repentance in His name (as Christ commanded) to those who are perishing, the slaughter of innocent children will continue in this country.

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent: Because he hath appointed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness…”

—
Galatians 1:10 “…if I still pleased man, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.”
http://pottersclay110.blogspot.com

If you really want to find out what abortion does , click here:

http://abortionno.org/

“Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil.”- God

Mriana:
If this Christian religion that you so obviously hate was not imposed on me I would still be an alcoholic, sleeping around, doing drugs ruining my life, living selfishly. So for me personally I am glad it was imposed on me, very glad. Glad for this life and the next. I know some of you atheists will say that your life’s are fine without God, this is just my personal testimony that I hope will speak truth to those that are in the above positions.

Ben, I don’t hate Christianity, but it is not the answer for everyone. I also do not like lay people preaching to others in an effort to convert them.

What I do hate, besides the preaching, is the behaviour of so many Christians, like the one being displayed here, religous dogma, and the imposing, controlling and oppressiveness of religion.

I’m very happy for you that Christianity helped you with alcoholism and everything else, but for me it was becoming a Humanist that helped me completely recover from Anorexia. It was religion that kept me, as a child in an abusive home, until my mother woke up and got me out of the situation by divorcing the man, but it took me as a 14 y.o. to make a call for help. I spent most of my life feeling guilty because my personal religous ideas never did comform to Christian ideas, thanks to the behaviour of humans. There are more behaviours that turn me off, but it was those behaviours holding me down as a human being. It became a vicious cycle much like Luther before he started the reformation- look him up, he was very self-depreciating and self-loathing until he stood up for himself and said he was not going to take it from the Catholic church. Buddha went through similar self-whipping issues too until he dropped Hinduism and started Buddhism.

OK so this does not say much for being an apostate to you, but I have better myself and helped others by leaving those things that were oppressing for me. For me, religion only brings misery to others and I have seen not just for/to me, but to others. Nawal El Saadawi, is another who complains of religion being oppressive and controlling. Currently the Muslim community wants her sentence to death because of her thoughts and alike. Gays are being persecuted and discriminated against by the church with the use of the Bible, much like people did years ago to keep slavery and segregation going. The Bible and Qu’ran is also used to oppress women. The list goes on and on of people oppressed and controlled by religion and they are miserable because of it.

However, you mistake my comments for being an atheist. I’m a non-theist. I won’t go into explaining it again, but there is no supernatural anthropomorphic god holding up the earth. *rollinge eyes* That reincarnated Zeus does not exist. No, I believe in a more natural “god” that is part of everything and everyone on earth and the universe and it’s much like the wind.

I believe it is humans who make this planet heaven or hell, beyond that, this is it and all we can know. In most cases, barring natural things like weather, it is humans, not a deity who do the cruel things here on earth and it is humans who can change it. I’ve always believed this, but for me religious dogma is not the solution because it just brings battles, hatred, control, oppression, imposing attitudes, and cruelity. Look closely and you can see some of it happening in this thread and IT’S THE HUMANS WHO ARE DOING ALL OF THIS, based on their ideology. Not a deity.

I do not see anything truly rational about any of this. However, I may not love the Bible like Spong and Price, but I do see some things useful, like that Good Samaritian story. Like Karen Armstrong, if there is something I can appreciate about religious texts, I keep it, but this is not in keeping with what is useful in religion. I do not point out these things in expectation of self-gratitude, not for fear of punishment or reward, but rather to help people see what they are doing to others. The God Samaritian did what he did from the heart too, without thinking about the consequences and so far that consequences I am receiving is hatred for pointing these things out to people because they don’t want to hear it. It seems people take pleasure in harming others.

What is happening here is the imposing of ideology on others. It is being forced on others in a effort to control others, not to help others. People are being hit over the head with ideology in an effort to say, “Christianity is the only right religion and you’d better believe it or else.” The “or else” is not wrath of a deity, but of humans. The attempt for control and oppression is not coming from any deity, but from humans. I’m sorry, but the Bible was not written by a god, but by humans, just as the Qu’ran and other holy texts were written by humans, not some supernatural being. If the dr who took care of my younger son and me believed some of this stuff about an unborn child, one or both of us might not be here right now. Luckily, we are both here and can celebrate life, but if things had turned for the VERY worst, one of us would not be here right now.

I’m glad that religion has helped you, but it does not help everyone and should not be imposed on anyone, just because it was imposed on you. IMHO, it is not right to do what has been done to you to others, because it is not always appreciated or helpful for various reasons, not necessarily hatred and I am truly sorry you have misinterpreted my actions as hatred. Sometimes, religion, esp religious dogma, does more harm than good.

I brought up abortion because Brian himself brought it up in the video on http://www.wayofthemasterradio.com

Mriana said,

May 11, 2007 at 10:37 am
. Nawal El Saadawi, is another who complains of religion being oppressive and controlling. Currently the Muslim community wants her sentence to death because of her thoughts and alike.

She is not the only one under Sharia. Women are considered less intelligent in Islam, and considered property. They can be beaten according to Islam. Islam says it will rule either by submission or violence. It is idolatry. THere is one God. Allah teaches a false Jesus.

Gays are being persecuted and discriminated against by the church with the use of the Bible, much like people did years ago to keep slavery and segregation going.
—————————————————————-
People have done all kinds of evil in the name of religion. The God of the Bible says from one man God made all mankind, and they are all made in His image. They are all born with a conscience. The God of Heaven is keeping watch on the evil and the good. He will render to all according to their deeds. No ne will get away with anything-everything will be laid bare before His eyes. Because He is good-He will judge everone according to the same standard-His. His Standard says if you even look with lust, you’ve already committed adultery in your heart. If you hate your brother, you’ve committed murder. Sins of the body-lust, homosexuality, fornication-are against His Law. But so is lying, coveting, idolatry. The soul that sins it shall die. God says those things are wrong, not man. God is the moral-giver. He would be a corrupt God if He did not uphold what He has declared. Out of the heart comes evil-Mark 7:21

If I were to ask you what is right and wrong, you would give me an answer different than what the God of the Bible gives–because man wants to justify himself. But God knows the heart, and He’s given you a conscience as a warning sign, and His Word to clarify the truth to you.
———————————————–
The Bible and Qu’ran is also used to oppress women. The list goes on and on of people oppressed and controlled by religion and they are miserable because of it.

However, you mistake my comments for being an atheist. I’m a non-theist. I won’t go into explaining it again, but there is no supernatural anthropomorphic god holding up the earth. *rollinge eyes* That reincarnated Zeus does not exist. No, I believe in a more natural “god” that is part of everything and everyone on earth and the universe and it’s much like the wind.

——————-
Where do you get your information? Again, there are thousands more manuscript of the Bible than any other book ever written. Creation is evidence of God. So is your conscience. So is His Word.
___________________________________

I do not see anything truly rational about any of this. However, I may not love the Bible like Spong and Price, but I do see some things useful, like that Good Samaritian story.

What is the greatest commandment? Jesus was asked, He said, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself.” The man asking a question before this story thought he was self-righteous– a good person. In the story, Jesus revealed he was not. To love your neighbor as yourself is not to hate your enemies, but to love all.(the Samaritans were “half-breeds” and the Jews avoided them) He also revealed the Pharisee and the priest as a hypocrite in the story, (who went on the other side of the road) Thus, he was showing the man asking the question that he indeed had not kept the royal law: love your neighbor as yourself. And on that point, if we love our neighbor as ourselves, we not only are kind to them, but we share the truth with them. Jesus said we would be persecuted for righteousness sake. What is righeousness? Being made right w/ God-through His Son. The Bible says men hate God without a cause. THe Cross is a stumbling block because man must humble himself and admit he is in need of a Savior. All of us.
—————————————————–

Like Karen Armstrong, if there is something I can appreciate about religious texts, I keep it, but this is not in keeping with what is useful in religion. I do not point out these things in expectation of self-gratitude, not for fear of punishment or reward, but rather to help people see what they are doing to others. The God Samaritian did what he did from the heart too, without thinking about the consequences and so far that consequences I am receiving is hatred for pointing these things out to people because they don’t want to hear it. It seems people take pleasure in harming others.

What is happening here is the imposing of ideology on others. It is being forced on others in a effort to control others, not to help others. People are being hit over the head with ideology in an effort to say, “Christianity is the only right religion and you’d better believe it or else.”

——————————–

Jesus made the claim Himself that He is the only way to the Father. They loved Him for it. (I’m being sarcastic). Again, the religious leaders of the day sought to put Him to death over His claims and for His authority. THey (like men of today in religion) try to make up their own path or standard to God. They bent the Law of God-Jesus straightened it, and filled up the Law. Therefore He was able to meet the demands of the Law and in His mercy, became a sustitutionary atonement for our sins. Oh how I pray you understand that! The love of God is always seen in the cross.

———————————————
The “or else” is not wrath of a deity, but of humans. The attempt for control and oppression is not coming from any deity, but from humans. I’m sorry, but the Bible was not written by a god, but by humans, just as the Qu’ran and other holy texts were written by humans, not some supernatural being.
——————————————————

God wrote it by the Spirit. Men were his instruments. The pen.

If the dr who took care of my younger son and me believed some of this stuff about an unborn child, one or both of us might not be here right now. Luckily, we are both here and can celebrate life, but if things had turned for the VERY worst, one of us would not be here right now.

I’m glad that religion has helped you, but it does not help everyone and should not be imposed on anyone,

————————————–

God does not impose Himself on you. You must humble your heart to receive His grace. God resists the proud.
———————————————————-

If I were to ask you what is right and wrong, you would give me an answer different than what the God of the Bible gives–because man wants to justify himself. But God knows the heart, and He’s given you a conscience as a warning sign, and His Word to clarify the truth to you.

Betty, there is no devine intervention happening here. It is humans v. humans. You seem to forget, and very conviently because the church leaders tell you differently, that the Bible is written by humans, not a divine being. Christianity doesn’t have a corner on anything.

What you quote about “love thy neighbour” being a commandment is the Golden Rule found in many holy texts, not just Christianity. The Lord is a jealous god and doesn’t want any other gods before him, so obviously there must be more than one. Personally, I don’t want to serve a jealous god that oppresses the people He supposedly created- like gays for example. BTW, I get my info on slavery from the Bible and History books. The Bible was used for that purpose.

The love of God is always seen in the cross.

How barbaric. I would hope humans would grow beyond such evolved Mithra myths (from Rome before it became all powerful and converted to Christianity). In the words of Bishop John Shelby Spong, “Jesus did not die for my sins.” I would not want anyone to suffer such a horrible barbaric death, personally, but I guess you enjoy that. You may THINK Jesus is God, due to the trinity, but I do not see Jesus as God and I do not view god as an anthropomorphic reincarnated Zeus. That god, as a good Church of Christ friend of mine said, does not exist.

Do you realize that Christianity not only came from Judaism, but eventually Paganism was incorporated. Christmas was originally a Pagan holiday. Rome, Constantine actually, wanted to keep it after converting, so he took Yule AKA the winter soltice and decided to make it Christ Mass- Christmas. The Christmas tree is pagan too. Easter is also loaded with Paganism too. The cross and the cruxifiction itself is from Paganism. Do some REAL, intellectual research on this instead of fake anti-intellectual because my minister and the Bible told me so crap.

BTW, Paul wrote first, never met Jesus, he even said so, then Mark wrote next- all 50 to 120 years AFTER JC’s death, Acts being the last. The Gospels were written according to the Hebrew litergical calendar, among other things such as rewritten myth. IF there ever was a historical Jesus, he is well buried in myth and we will never find him. 80% of what is attributed to JC saying, he never really said. More than one person also wrote the Gospels as evidence of the contradictions in individual books. The list of issues with the story of JC goes on and on. Ask a REAL theologian- like at a university- and they will tell you, unless you are afraid to have your myth belief shattered.

Don’t pray for me. Pray for yourself so that you may have freedom from oppression and control by other humans who created religion and god(s). As FFRF says, “Nothing fails like prayer.”

No, the god that I know does not impose itself on anyone. It is a part of us, part of animals, part of nature, the earth and the universe. It is far kinder than the one humans wrote about in the holy texts. It is not anthropomorphic either, but like the wind as I said before. It has no shape, form, or gender. It just is and is seen as well as felt through other people, animals, and the universe, just as the wind is seen by the movements of the trees and felt on our bodies. (See deism, pantheism, and panendeism, as well as Tillich and Hegel) I certainly don’t need a holy text to follow this god, except love it by loving the gift of life, stive to better humanity, and taking care of this planet and the life on it. Although I do study holy texts and I do know what is in them.

Isaiah 7:14 Messiah born of a virgin . Jesus was.

One last thing as a scroll this by way of education, Betty. The Hebrew word that was used in this verse was almah meaning young woman [of marrying age]. It was mistranslated into Greek using the Greek word for virgin. It was never a virgin originally in this verse in which the discription of Mother Mary was borrowed from at the time the authors of the Bible wrote and they were not the ones we attribute them to currently. So in reality Mother Mary wasn’t a virgin if you take the Hebrew translation of almah. She was a young woman and Jesus was never born of a virgin. Please do your Bible study more carefully before you preach and/or tell others to read their Bible. If you want a resource on that, seek out a Bible Scholar or a Jew who knows their Hebrew.

I may not agree with your worldview, but I do know my Bible very well and the history behind it. So, it is very hard to use such verses on me when I have done a fairly thorough study and research on this with guide of scholars from various backgrounds that I respect highly.

I never said that Christians were the hateful ones in this world. In fact, many Christians who have known me on this board for over a year would chime in that that’s the direct opposite of something that I’d say

Absolutely. Siamang does not speak in negative generalities…and if ever a fondness for global statements could be exposed, it would be on these blogs. I can’t think of one hot button topic those of us participating in this conversation have sidestepped over the past year. And we have managed to do it without becoming hateful towards each other.

You ask why atheists say hateful things on the video… Who knows why people are angry?

Not listening is a surefire way to get people fired up. Telling someone what they are feeling, and why, is another good way to provoke anger. Twisting peoples words and misrepresenting their position can leave a wake of sputtering frustration. Standard techniques used, and taught, by WOTM.

I didn’t watch the debate. C&C lost their credibilty with me when I listened to their interviews with Hemant and also with Dan Barker. When those interviews aired, about a year ago, I was a very conservative christian and I was deeply offended by C&Cs abusive, hamfisted tactics. I was appalled and ashamed by how they treated people – in the name of God, no less! It got me to thinking about the phrase “by their fruits you shall know them….”

Mriana said,

May 11, 2007 at 4:07 pm

Betty, there is no devine intervention happening here. It is humans v. humans. You seem to forget, and very conviently because the church leaders tell you differently, that the Bible is written by humans, not a divine being. Christianity doesn’t have a corner on anything.

———————————-
Every time you see “thus sayeth the Lord” , it is God Himself speaking. The men wrote inspired by the Spirit. The men are the pens of God.
——————————————————–

What you quote about “love thy neighbour” being a commandment is the Golden Rule found in many holy texts, not just Christianity. The Lord is a jealous god and doesn’t want any other gods before him, so obviously there must be more than one.
—————————————————-
No, that is clarified in the 2nd commandment. If one makes up a god in his mind or w/ his hands, it is not a god at all. Isaiah is specific that there is One God. So is Jesus. So is Paul.
————————————————————–
Personally, I don’t want to serve a jealous god that oppresses the people He supposedly created- like gays for example.

If you wrestle with God, you’ll get burned. Yeah, I just made it up, but it means that if you do not acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior, you stand condemned. God says its wrong. Repentance is agreeing w/ God that it’s wrong and turning from it. .
————————————————————BTW, I get my info on slavery from the Bible and History books. The Bible was used for that purpose.
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Coming to Christ brings freedom from sin-sin is slavery.
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The love of God is always seen in the cross.

How barbaric.

———-
Yes it is isn’t it? Cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree. Jesus became a curse for us, that we may be made right w/ God.
—————————————————————I would hope humans would grow beyond such evolved Mithra myths (from Rome before it became all powerful and converted to Christianity). In the words of Bishop John Shelby Spong, “Jesus did not die for my sins.” I would not want anyone to suffer such a horrible barbaric death, personally, but I guess you enjoy that.
————————————————————-
God doesn’t want you to suffer even worse-eternity in the lake of fire.
———————————————————

You may THINK Jesus is God, due to the trinity, but I do not see Jesus as God and I do not view god as an anthropomorphic reincarnated Zeus. That god, as a good Church of Christ friend of mine said, does not exist.

————————————————————-

BTW, Paul wrote first, never met Jesus, he even said so,
——————————————————-
Wrong. He met him on the way to persecute Christians. In a BIG way.
———————————————————– then Mark wrote next- all 50 to 120 years AFTER JC’s death,
____________________________________________________________
They were EYEWITNESSES!!!
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Acts being the last. The Gospels were written according to the Hebrew litergical calendar, among other things such as rewritten myth. IF there ever was a historical Jesus, he is well buried in myth and we will never find him. 80% of what is attributed to JC saying, he never really said.
————————————————————
What if you are wrong?
————————————————————More than one person also wrote the Gospels as evidence of the contradictions in individual books.
————————————————————-
Again, individual, eyewitness accounts. Because one may have seen only one character and the other two, doens’t make them wrong. They are both right-from what they saw.
___________________________________________________________________
————————————————————The list of issues with the story of JC goes on and on. Ask a REAL theologian- like at a university- and they will tell you, unless you are afraid to have your myth belief shattered.

Now THAT would be dangerous! Go to the source–the Bible!
———————————————————

No, the god that I know does not impose itself on anyone. It is a part of us, part of animals, part of nature, the earth and the universe. It is far kinder than the one humans wrote about in the holy texts. It is not anthropomorphic either, but like the wind as I said before. It has no shape, form, or gender. It just is and is seen as well as felt through other people, animals, and the universe, just as the wind is seen by the movements of the trees and felt on our bodies. (See deism, pantheism, and panendeism, as well as Tillich and Hegel) I certainly don’t need a holy text to follow this god, except love it by loving the gift of life, stive to better humanity, and taking care of this planet and the life on it. ————————————-

yeah–because that god doesn’t exist.

🙂
“You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. ” -Jesus the Christ

Jon.

I’m going to respond because it’s the polite thing to do when you’ve written to me directly.

I’ve decided to no longer take part in the current discussions spawned from the Cameron/Comfort stories. They have become too rancorous and they’re completely opposite of what the Friendly Atheist culture is about. This is exactly the kind of discussion I’ve come here to get away from. There are a million and one places on the internet where atheists and Christians can argue about evolution, each with smug, self-gratified tones. This place usually is different.

I do hope you stick around if you are interested in dialogues where listening is more important than proving something. We used to have a lot more of that before the current influx of posters that the Nightline story attracted.

Hopefully that positive tone will return soon. Hopefully you will decide to stick around for it, and you’ll be a positive contributor to it.

Mary was espoused to Joseph, and Joseph considered , and could have had her stoned , because they had not yet come together. There are prophecies that Messiah would be born of a virgin. No one else fits the prophecy. You refuse to come to Him to have life.

Do you not realize that Matthew, who was the second gospel writer, may not have understood the illegitamcy of JC? If you read Isaiah 7 and 8 carefully, Isaiah is not talking about Jesus. He speaks of elohiem or Immanual, which means “God with us”. He’s talking about his own son. There was no prediction of a virgin birth.

Matthew may have also used the Dotrine from Opportune Myth to establish his story too, but whatever the case, there was no prediction of a virgin birth AND I could take this a step further- all virgin birth stories by their very nature mythological. Babies in the womb don’t know a thing about other babies in someone else womb, but I could continue tearing up Matthew and Luke, then putting them back together again, but I won’t.

Back to the mythical virgin birth found in so many other myical stories…. Mark, the first gospel writer (placed out of order in the Bible) had no clue about a virgin birth. He starts out with a fully human JC. The baptism by John was when JC received the H.S. and God is then in him. The gospel writer John, the last gospel writer, seems to deny Matthew and Luke’s accounts of a virgin birth AND on two different occassions he refers to JC as “the son of Joseph”. Apparently he knew his Hebrew.

This miricle birth enter into Christianity via Matthew in the middle years of the 9th decade (sixty years after JC was said to be crucified). Matthew used the mistranslated Greek version of Isaiah to write his story of JC. He could not have Mary stoned to death, because then there would be no story to write. It would be the end of the story. If Matt had read the Hebrew version of Isaiah, he would have found there was NO virgin birth. The Hebrew says, “Behold a woman is with child”. Isaiah was talking about his dearly beloved wife, not something in the future.

I could continue shredding the virgin birth myth if you like, but I really don’t want to pull the rug out from under you, because you can’t handle the whole truth- not all at once at least.

Don’t jump to conclusions by what I said above, I attended a liberal Episcopal Church for over 20 years as an adult. Bishop John Shelby Spong was and is a great influence on me and I learned a lot from him. Robert Price, also attends the Episcopal church, is person I appreciate greatly too. Give them a look see and you could learn the REAL story behind the Bible.

Mriana wrote:

If you read Isaiah 7 and 8 carefully, Isaiah is not talking about Jesus. He speaks of elohiem or Immanual, which means “God with us”. He’s talking about his own son. There was no prediction of a virgin birth.

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Read the Bible yourself, don’t let others interpret it for you. Many are misled by church leaders who don’t let their people think for themselves. Examine the Scriptures-all of them-yourself.

Mark 2 tells us that Jesus forgave sin, and this angered the scribes because Jesus was , by doing this, claiming to be God-who alone can forgive sins. In this instance, Jesus did both: forgave his sins, and healed the man (miracles were a sign He was Messiah-yet many refused to believe, and were even angered-as seen here). Here is what Isaiah said about Jesus:

Isaiah 9:6-7 A child will be born to us. The government will be upon His shoulders, with no end of the increase thereof (King of Kings). He will do this by justice and righteousness. His NAME will be called: wonderful counselor, MIGHTY GOD, eternal Father (I AM God), Prince of peace.

This child is also:

Alpha and Omega: Isaiah 41:4 ,Isaiah 48:12 ,Revelation 1:8 ,Revelation 1:17,18,Revelation 2:8 ,Revelation 22:12–16

Lord: Isaiah 45:23

Savior: Isaiah 43:3 ,Isaiah 43:11, Isaiah 49:26, Isaiah 63:8,Hebrews 5:9

Our righteousness: Isaiah 45:24

Creator: Isaiah 40:28,Isaiah 43:1,Hebrews 1:1–3,10

Eternal: Isaiah 9:6, Hebrews 7: 24, 25,26

Hebrews states the Jesus is the high priest who is “able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since HE ALWAYS LIVES TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR THEM. For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, HOLY, INNOCENT, UNDEFILED, SEPARATED FROM SINNERS AND EXALTED ABOVE THE HEAVENS.”

Isaiah also tells us that Jehovah God (Who is Christ Jesus) is the only God and all other gods are idols. INCLUDING THE ONE MADE UP IN THE MIND TO SUIT YOURSELF.

Read the Bible yourself, don’t let others interpret it for you. Many are misled by church leaders who don’t let their people think for themselves. Examine the Scriptures-all of them-yourself.

My you are a glutton for punishment! But I figured you were. I have examined the Bible myself. I don’t let others interpret it or think for me nor am I letting you tell me what to think either just because what I say contradicts what you have always believed. However, I do study with the most educated theologians that I respect and ask them questions when I have them. IMHO, you are a lay person who has not studied the Bible very well herself. There are no messionic prophecies in the O.T. Isaish IS talking about his unborn son, not some future messiah. He predicted nothing.

So the god you believe in is corrupt. The God of the Bible is fair and just, and will judge all according to the same Standard. Your god doeosn’t exist.
You deceive yourself and love the lie.

You say it is corrupt. Honestly with all the psychological verbal abuse you try to dish out, I think you are the one judging, attempting to impose your god on us.

The one I believe in does not enjoy babies being thrown against walls (OT story), nor does it send bears out to kill little children who laugh at prophets (another OT story). Oh here’s a good one from the NT, Jesus disrespecting his mother at the wedding reception given at his home (John 2:4). Now, given the wedding is at his home, this says his parents had money and as a rule, under Jewish tradition, it is the son’s wedding being celebrated, which says that part was editted for some reason. I won’t go into that one, but it is cause to wonder.

Now have you read Jesus’s geneology at the beginning of Matthew? This is good: there are 4 women of ill-repute in his geneology (Matthew 1:1-17)- Tamar (who was impregnanted by her father-in-law, which is incest under Judaic law and her story is in Genesis 38). Rahab the Harlot is there and her story is in Joshua 2:1-21 and 6:22-25). Ruth, yes Ruth the Moabite, who seduced Boaz: Ruth 2-4. Lastly, is the wife of Uriah the Hittite, known as Bathsheba. She had her husband Uriah killed after having an affair with King David and then she marries King David- II Samuel 11-12. OK so Jesus has adultresses, murders, incest, and prostitutes in his family line. Thus why the Jews did not accept him as the Messiah. It’s scandalous and the Jews yelled, “We were not born under fornication.” and “Nothing good can come out of Nazareth”. So, the writer of Matthew had to come up with something to cover up the rumours of Jesus’s illegitimacy… unless of course the writer of Luke is correct when he called Joseph JC’s father twice. Take a look at it and you will see JC’s corrupt geneology, which the Jews at the time were upset about because it is tainted and impure. BOY, IS THE OLD TESTMENT FULL OF SMUT! WHo needs Jackie Collins after all of THAT? lol

My god is about love, compassion, and reason. I have a feeling you see what I am saying, it troubles you, thus you feel threatened, and you don’t like it, because it contradicts what you have been told all your life. So, you, as a human, fight back with by trying to inflict guilt on others because they have different POVs and have more knowledge and understanding of the Bible than you do. It’s sad when people feel so insecure in their beliefs and are easily threatened by others who show them things in the Bible they may not have realized or do not want to realize.

That is a website by the Religious Reich, not a scholarly journal. Bible Scholars are a far better resource IMHO. When you find a real Bible scholar of the calibar of Spong, Price, Karen Armstrong, Dennis McKinsey, Tom Flynn, Robert Funk, Joseph Hoffman, or even Borg, we’ll talk.

Obviously you don’t study your Bible well or you’d know what I was referring to about bears and babies, but since you want me to state my sources…

Babies:
O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.” (Psalm 137:8-9)

Elisha and the Bears story:

“And he [Elisha] went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.” (II Kings 2:23-24)

Here’s another for you. Jephthaha had to burn his daughter and unlike Isaiah, he was not given any alternative, so he burned his daughter to death.

And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. . . . And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; . . . And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed.” (Judges 11:30-39)

The devil me do it story. The devil dared God to traumatize Job:

“And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.” (Job 2:3)

Two more from Jesus himself. Hate your family and follow me:

“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26)

Great family values.

“Being supposedly the son of Joseph, the son of Eli…” Lk 3:23

The author of John says it twice that Jesus is Joe’s son and he has no virgin birth story, but why bother writing it. It’s been done. Either that or he knows it’s rewritten myth. John 7:42 There’s another verse too, but I don’t have time to go look it up, so I’ll let you do research on you’re own. It would do you good.

I thought you didn’t believe Matthew???

*rolling eyes* Even The Jesus Project (CSER, which is a division of CFI) studies these books. Doesn’t mean they take them as Gospel. I guess you missed where I said it was great smut. It’s right up there with Jackie Collins. Obviously I think it nothing more than stories. That Rahab, she was a cool woman. Lived a wild life even helped to fight a battle at Jericho with Joshua. Humm… Sex, violence, murder, rape, adultry, incest… Yup! Right up there with Jackie Collins.

My god is about love, compassion, and reason.

Your God doesn’t exist.

Well, can’t say that yours does either. “God is a human concept. Theism and God are not the same. Theism is but one definition of God” ~ Bishop John Shelby Spong from Why Christianity Must Change or Die, p. 24. In otherwords, everyone has a concept of God and they are not always the same. You have a theist view and I have a non-theistic view. Such is life.

Read it–everyone on this blog, for yourself. Take notes, ask questions, but the Bible is the most reliable, accurate, most widely read book in the world.

*rolling eyes* She obviously is insecure with her beliefs and feels threaten by me. I have similare debates with others on other boards and she has held up similarly.

This has become a circular debate and neither of us is going to change the other one’s mind, so why don’t we give it a rest and let the people decide for themselves who had the better knowledge of what they were talking about.

I leave you with this last thought from C. S. Lewis’s book “Surprised by Joy”:

“You can have enlightenment for nine pence, but you prefer ignorance.” ~ Old Knock AKA W.T. Kirkpatrick- a Secular Humanist

I don’t believe Spong and Price. There is no evidence that they exist.

I don’t believe Spong and Price. There is no evidence that they exist.

Oh brother. *rolling eyes* That is the worst use of illogic that I have ever heard.

I see god every day in people, by their actions. It is in their love and compassion for others. So, if I may sound like a Gnostic for a moment, god is already here, you just have not see it. Seems to me god has knocked and you turned it away because you did not know it.

But like I said, we can not convience each other differntly. So, we might as well let people think and decide for themselves.

Mriana wrote:

Two more from Jesus himself. Hate your family and follow me:

“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26)

——————————————————–

This is hyperbole. Jesus is saying that our love for Him should far exceed our love for anything else. He also says that He will cause division if we truly live for Him, (seen any of that around here?? 🙂 ) because He is our rightousness, men love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil, and they won’t come into the light.

So which god is it that people worship when they do evil?

You know with all the Evangelical ministers like Hager with male prostitiutes and drugs, Billy Graham and a prostitute, Bakker and money scandels, Catholic priests molesting young boys and girls, the list goes on and on, you tell me. The majority of people in prisons are said to be Christians. Less than 1% are atheists. I have yet to see a Humanist be sentence to prison. The worst Madeline O’Hara did was hire ex-cons for her company and they killed her. The Crusades were done by Christains, killing hundreds of people, Witch Hunts were done by Christians, charges of heresy and subsequent murder of said heretics were done by Christians. The 100 year war was a Christians deal too. Slavery was condon by Christians, as well as segregation, and currently the Bible is being used to deny human dignity to homosexuals. The Qu’ran is used to oppress woman and in some case the Bible too, esp in matters of women’s reproductive health. The Jesus Camp emotionally abuses children. Religious Islamic extremists are accused of doing the Twin Towers thing, but I’d say the Christians have the evil thing wrapped up if you believe in evil, instead of good and bad, moral and immorality. Regardless, I call that all immoral. Yet it is the humans who are doing it all, not some supernatural being.

That’s a great challenge Dan, and one more Christians need to hear. Would you mind if I reposted it at my blog?

Great, if you post it at yours then I’ll just quote the first few paragraphs and then link to you, that way you’ll get the blog traffic. 🙂

What is a true Christian and is it possible for anyone to be a true Christian?

You know, Dan, I don’t know anymore. I have a friend, who knows I’m a Humanist, who believes in my heart I am a Christian. While I can very much agree with various theologians, like those I’ve mentioned before, I don’t love the Bible like they do, but their humanistic values I can totally agree with. I won’t say I don’t view god as they do, for I don’t know, except Spong’s view, how they truly view it.

I don’t think it is possible to say what a true Christian is nor will I sit here and judge Betty by my ideas of what I think a Christian should be. It is possible she has missed the love and compassion that those like Schori, Spong, and my Church of Christ friend have experienced. I would not know and I will not judge her by an concepts I have.

You know, I feel sorry for you, Betty. Somehow I get the feeling you have never experienced true love and compassion. I truly feel what you need is more love, esp as I look over my communications to Bishop Jack (Bishop Spong’s nick) concerning my complaints about such behaviours. I think he is very right, that in such cases, that people need more love and compassion when they act in such ways.

As a Humanist, I am open-minded enough to get my information from various sources and make my own mind up about things. I get the scientific information on a variety of things too.

IN closing, I’ll leave you with another thought that a my dear friend Bishop Jack Spong, who is very much the Christian Humanist (Religious Humanist), sent me long ago and I kept the letter too to share with others:

“Humanism is not anti-Christian or anti-God. It is through the human that we experience the Holy, the Other. The Divine is the Ultimate depth of the human.” ~ Jack Spong.

Something to think about before you judge others without any love and compassion. I try not to judge others as I said before, not even by what my concept is of what one should be. Jack and I may not always agree on somethings, but I can completely agree with him on that statement and I am so sorry you have yet to experience it.

Please watch:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3GLtIYSPFLg

Jesus said to His disciples, “Whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it. For what will a man profit if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man IS GOING TO COME in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds. Matthew 16:25-27

“O Lord!
If I worship You from fear of Hell,
cast me into Hell
If I worship You from desire for Paradise,
deny me Paradise
but if I worship you for Your own sake then withhold not from me Your Eternal beauty ” ~ Rabi’a al-Adawiyya (She is regarded as a saint of the 8th century that influenced both Muslims and Sufis)

Well said. Funny how that is from Islam and not Christianity.
To bad more people do not approach their beliefs from this point of view because then there might be a lot less hatred and intolerance in the world.

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